[Fiend]

A sort of double jointed two pronged attack of a topic. I speak with forked tongue.

On the one fork, there is a general query / exploration of issues:

I like steep climbing. I like steep trad climbing. I like roofs, overhangs, bulges, impending walls, etc. I find them exhilerating, wild, satisfying. I also find myself being rather scared off them. I'm strong enough, that's not the problem. I'm good enough at steep climbing. But my trad climbing tends to be a methodical procedure of faffing, up-and-down-climbing, backing up gear, procrastinating, and finally committing. A war of attrition against my own inherent lack of confidence. Of course, steep climbs allows for none of that faffery. One places pro quickly, and sets sail before strength fades. In theory at least. More likely, I take one look and run away gibbering. But the desire doesn't dissipate....it lurks, waiting for me, luring me back...

And making me realise I want to improve at this. I'm sure the whole procedure would do me a lot of good. I could definitely do with climbing quicker and more fluidly (which of course comes with the confidence I lack....oh well.). I want to be yarding up stuff, dangling on jugs, flicking in wires like sleight of hand, and pulling over onto exposed belays rather than downaiding in disgrace. But how so? Stamina training, steep training, learning about logistics and fall potentials....learning about all the tactics of timing. Anything else??



And then, on the other tongue....a list of some of the best mid-grade (let's say HVS-E3-ish) trad around the UK. For starters:

Grit: Anything and everything, it's all bloody obvious. All the roofs, and Higgar, and New Mill Torrs.

Carreg Hyll Drem - King King / Troubadour E3, The Burner E2, Samuri Groove E3.

Rhoscolyn - The Sun E2, Godzilla E4, Electric Blue E3/4.

Cheshire - Brandenburg Wall E4, The Mangler E3,

The Lizard - The Cull E3, some other route E3.

Long Quarry Point - Sacrosanct / Incubus HVS, Call To Arms E4

Langdale - Paladin E2,

Borrowdale - Falcon Crag routes E1-3,

Dow Area - Darklands E2,

Northumberland - Canada Crack HVS, Overhanging Crack E2, Bad Company E2, Crucifix E0, Outward Bound E2, all the Back Bowden roofs E1

Okay. That's a bit of a shit list for starters, sorry I will improve it later honest guv.

[Pantontino]

Have you done the very classic and very burly Gritstone Gorilla on the Ormes - like Tippler direct, but made of limestone and pretty full on if you take the direct finish.

[Will Hunt]

If you want to practice before you actually get on it then the hoop la buttress at Frodsham should sort you out. Bouldering but still pleasant. Try going to Frogsmouth if you dont mind sport climbing and questionable bolts (unending talk of this place being freshly bolted and not much action have dulled my hopes that it will ever get done).

Just about anything on The Broadwalk at Helsby gives a steep start and plenty of space to fall into should it all go wrong before gear goes in (but factor 2 falls on sandstone belays is far from healthy). I think there is a very old nut on Coward of the County that was once placed by Mr Popp if you dont mind E4 6a.

If you want your name in the guide book then try The Missing Font. After all, only got a tech grade of 5c. Wonder why noones lead it yet  ???

[Stubbs]

How about the 'cliff? Wall of Horrors, Western Front, Big Greeny, Grand Illusion (OK E4, but just safe hard pulling up from an HVS from what I can see).  Different types of steepness and diffferent sorts of holds.

I also suggest Bancroft's roof as an excellent highball roof if your in the facility, and there's also Rectum Rift - perhaps that week in font might come in handy for that one....

[SA Chris]

Fiend, I have always thought South Pembroke to be a good place to work on steepness weakness. Many of the routes are well protected by good gear and usually climb impending or overhanging ground, often on good holds. I tended to spend my time there avoiding any steep stuff, but ones I remember doing that are fairly steep;
B Team Buttress E1 (Aero the VS to it's left is pretty steep for the grade too).
Rock idol E1
Straight Gate E1
Snozwanger (HVS/E1)
Bon Voyage E2. (well steep for one bit)
I'm sure there are dozens that can be added to this list.
Same applies for Sharpnose.

[mark]

I think confidence is the key, and the only way for me to get confidence in tradding is by leading trad routes. At times in the past I’ve been pretty fit from sport-climbing and have found that it didn’t make as much difference as I had hoped in my trad leading. There was still the psychological barrier that I had to push against and physical fitness was of limited help in this.

For me, the times when I’ve been leading best on trad routes have been after periods when I’ve managed to get out leading trad routes often. The fitness from sport-climbing and the strength from bouldering certainly help but it’s recent experience of placing gear and moving away from it that lets me stretch myself on trad routes. So, if you have the opportunity, the best way to get better at leading trad routes is to get out and lead trad routes.

[webbo]

what you need to do fiend is get weak.when i was a callow youth in my late teens i never had the strength to hang a round to place lots of gear.so it was a case of whip in a nut and go.also get into soloing stuff that it is possible to bail off or traverse off if it ain't working.
for example birdlime traverse at almscliff.

[IanP]

Don't totally agree with Mark S - while lots of trad climbing is important I think sport climbing can help, but need the right sort of sport climbing.  If you're aiming for big steep trad routes then you need big steep sport routes with OK holds to replicate this - obviously not that common in the UK at a reasonable grade (7a - 7b) but things like the left hand side of Malham (Yosemite Wall, Appetite, Taking the Space), Gallows Humour at Gordale, maybe some of the stuff at Trow Gill, Mayfair (steep finish) and Bearded Clam at Pen Trywn come to mind.  Climbing this sort of stuff does teach you how climb, hang around and (to certain extent) recover on steep ground.  Some of these have spaced bolts which could help with commitment side of things.

As to mid grade properly steep trad routes - agree with the pembroke option, Test Case and Space Cadet at St Govans, Star Wars at Mother Careys, the classics on Stackpole.   

[Andy F]

Steep stuff = Kilnsey IMHO. Get on Deja Vue, Smooth Torquer, Hardy Annual and those 7a's at the LH end to improve power/stamina on steep stuff, all in the 7a-7b range or try Central Wall at E4 6a.

[AndiT]

Fiend, I think that is the same for all of us. Some routes however let you surrender yourself easier than others. Procrastination occurs whenever it is allowed, the hardest moves on routes are always after the rest, or leaving the ledge. You need to get on routes which just make you keep blasting on up, with no possibility of stopping.

I did a route on Saturday like this. It had a big hold just off the belay ledge and then the next big hold was bloody miles away, between were just many roundy side pulls. You had no choice but to go, at one point you were forced into this choice as there was no gear too. I find that a few of these routes do wonders for your mind-set/ability. I really know what you mean though and you don't need to worry, that's just how climbing is. That's just how commitment is.

[matthew]

Staffs - Sloth
Bamford - The stupid hand traverse of the gun (it's name eludes me at the min)

[Falling Down]

Wise words from Mark, AndiT and AndyF and IanP.  For me (when I've been going well) the desire and commitment to move quickly and commit to the different style of climbing that comes with moving over steeper ground comes from both the comfort of having done it whilst sport climbing (esp Cornice, Kilnsey, WCJ etc. - flaky, juggy and steep) which provides becoming accustomed to the different centre of gravity, AND having lots of trad mileage under ones belt which encourages less procrastination and the ability to forget about the gear and the runouts.

I'm nowhere near that right now but I'm just doing trad this year and enjoying it all clicking into place....

[rc]

You say you're strong enough to do these sorts of routes, but faff a lot (or presumably enough to get knackered and have to bail/retreat/hang). Clearly you have two choices (1) get really goddamn stamina'd up to the max so you can hang around all week, or (2) climb faster.
Why are you faffing? Seems like you have the mileage to know how to place and judge gear. Do you not trust it? Are you ridiculously slow at placing gear? Do you want a minimum of 5 solid pieces when you think it's likely you'll fall?
I reckon some of this might be improved by reducing the fear of lobbing off and making the lead more about rational calculation than just shitting it. This can be improved by sport climbing and falling off a lot, getting used to doing tenuous moves above the bolt, feeling the strength drain, staying mentally relaxed while you keep going, shake out and chill even if a long way up above gear. You can then transfer this approach to making cold rational decisions in the trad situation. Decide on the gear and if it is good enough then set off fully confident that you can suck up the fall if it happens. Only then can you relax and climb to your ability rather than spending time faffing around wanting more gear for no reason other than the amplified irrational aspect of fearing the lob. Of course I dont need to tell you that some falls ought to be feared.

I reckon pembroke is a great place to turn the sport confidence vibe into trad in situations where there is no way you can hang around all day - it is up or off. A lot of the steep routes have awesome gear so you can chuck in a wire and be absolutely happy it is solid. This prevents the mental justificaton of the faff when the gear is a bit dodgy and you could convince yourself you have no choice but to fiddle around, until you have to bail. There are so many brilliant E2/3s there with super solid gear and nothing to hit even if you take a big lob so it is perfect for training your head.

[GCW]

Go and do all the routes at Heptonstall.

[grimer]

I think the reason you often can't do things like grooves / slabs / steep stuff etc is that at some point you have decided that you can't do them. I think as you get older it is very easy to collect more and more of these things about you that you have decided that you can't do, or don't like etc. It's the opposite of youth, which is all about finding more experiences. In other words, it's about limiting your experiences, building walls around yourself. I don't like prawns, but i cannot tell you what they taste like or feel like in the mouth. Obviously at some point in my life i decided that i was the sort of person who didn't like prawns. So I don't eat prawns.

I have seen you down the wall, Fiend, and you are plenty strong enough on steep stuff. You are an experienced trad climber, and you enjoy steep stuff. It's like saying 'if only i could make an omlette' when the gas is on, you have a frying pan and the fridge is full of eggs. Often, once you realise you can do something, then often you can.

[Bonjoy]

You should try prawns Grimer, they're actually very nice.

 Regards the cross-over from sport to trad. It's all down to the sort of sport climbing you are doing. Redpointing (heaven forbid, after stick-clip working) is next to useless for trad confidence. What I think IS very useful is learning to push yourself to the limit of your onsight ability in relative safety. As often as not this involves bigger run-outs than your average steep trad route and clipping whilst almost falling off. To be honest you don't see a lot of this going on at sport crags these days, stick-clip and top-rope seem to be the order of the day.
 The best week I ever had in Pembroke was after driving over from a week in Portland.
 I'm sure you know this already but I reckon the key skill with steep trad is to place clusters of bomb proof gear at the rests, get the mental dialogue about the solidity of the gear over and done with at the rest and then run it out to the next rest.

[mark]

I think the reason you often can't do things like grooves / slabs / steep stuff etc is that at some point you have decided that you can't do them. I think as you get older it is very easy to collect more and more of these things about you that you have decided that you can't do, or don't like etc. It's the opposite of youth, which is all about finding more experiences. In other words, it's about limiting your experiences, building walls around yourself. I don't like prawns, but i cannot tell you what they taste like or feel like in the mouth. Obviously at some point in my life i decided that i was the sort of person who didn't like prawns. So I don't eat prawns.

I have seen you down the wall, Fiend, and you are plenty strong enough on steep stuff. You are an experienced trad climber, and you enjoy steep stuff. It's like saying 'if only i could make an omlette' when the gas is on, you have a frying pan and the fridge is full of eggs. Often, once you realise you can do something, then often you can.

Perhaps we could take Grimer's advice and mix in a bit of Californian positive thinking. So, Fiend, every morning when you wake, look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say out loud, "I am plenty strong enough on steep stuff. I am an experienced trad climber and I enjoy steep stuff! I AM GOING TO FUCKING MAKE THAT OMELETTE!!" Or something.

[SA Chris]

Does this apply to swimming too Grimer? You decide you are a person who doesn't like it?

True words about not liking more and more things the older you get. Guess that's why many old folk are such miserable sods.

Also remember that falls on steep terrain are likely to be safer than less steep terrain. Provided you know how to fall though.

Fiend, from my limited experience of climbing with you, I reckon you do place a lot more excellent gear than necessary. Have faith in it. Faith can move mountains.

[Yossarian]

I think that there's a lot more to making an omlette than eggs and a pan. Everything has to be just right. There's definitely a technique but your state of mind is important too. Determined but not aggressive, and confident without making the erroneous assumption that the eggs actually want to turn into something fluffily gooey and delicious. As Fergus Henderson once said, "Do not be afraid of cooking, as your ingredients will know, and misbehave. Enjoy your cooking and the food will behave; moreover it will pass your pleasure on to those who eat it.”

I love climbing steep sport things, but I often seem to shy away from steeper trad. When I do have a go I often pump out hanging mid-crux trying to fiddle a nut in, when I know deep down that I'm far more likely to get to the top if I run it out a bit more. Personally, I find that sport climbing fitness can be a bit counterproductive, as having the ability to comfortably do what I've just described is not what you really want to be doing in the long run...

[AndiT]

There's definitely a lot of truth being spoken so far. Completely agree with what Grimer says in that you can back yourself into a corner with attitude and can soon find yourself in a downward spiral, you need to try to keep a very broard canvas and work everything. If you tell yourself you can't climb slabs but are great on overhangs, you'll find yourself talking your way out of Flying Buttress Direct because of the slabby start.

It's also very easy to blame your weaknesses. For about a decade I've wanted to climb London Wall and always wanted to flash it but have always put it off. Yesterday I actually had a go at last and fell three inches onto my gear at about ten foot. The first thing I thought to myself was "Andi, you're crap at finger cracks." Not, "Andi, you're fine at finger cracks, this is a hard route but you were always destined to fail.", which is what I should have thought.

Fitness definitely helps, so sport climbing has its place but having 'the flow' is much more important. Getting this comes from climbing routes which let you flow or which force you into commitment. Fiend if you want to find this on steep routes, you need to get on the stamina ones more than the cruxy ones, then hopefully you can just get running for the top rather than the dreaded procrastination.

My recommendation would be 'Licence to Run'on the Roaches Lower Tier. It's a steep wall but really quite goey, you can't rest so either have to reverse a lot of climbing to the ledge or run it to the top, you can't hang about. A surprise one I did last week was 'Deltoid Shuffle' at Raven's Tor in Dovedale, again a steep wall with a perfect little run out. Both these routes make the decisions for you i.e. go for it, or don't do it. Both have good gear and should get you in the groove.

Prawns are nice.

[Fiend]

Some excellent suggestions on here, thank you one and all. I knew there was a reason I asked it on UKB rather than UKC.

I'll reply individually a bit later. In the meantime I'll be off to the shops to buy the ingredients for a prawn omelette for tonight's dinner!

[AndiT]

You should have PM to.

[Fiend]

Apologies for the the threadomancy but wanted to reply to some stuff. Haven;t got people in the quotes but thanks all. Wanting to put this lot into practise

Have you done the very classic and very burly Gritstone Gorilla on the Ormes - like Tippler direct, but made of limestone and pretty full on if you take the direct finish.

Nice one, fits the bill, will bear that in mind. Still gotta do Tippler Direct (backed off in the cold) and The Dangler and Quietus.

How about the 'cliff? Wall of Horrors, Western Front, Big Greeny, Grand Illusion (OK E4, but just safe hard pulling up from an HVS from what I can see).  Different types of steepness and diffferent sorts of holds.

Of those, Grand Illusion and Western Front are steep enough, and the former is definitely on my list, that's the terrain I'm after. WOH is also on the list although it ain't proper steep, neither is BG but did that earlier this year, was easy and good fun!

B Team Buttress E1 (Aero the VS to it's left is pretty steep for the grade too).
Rock idol E1
Straight Gate E1
Snozwanger (HVS/E1)
Bon Voyage E2. (well steep for one bit)
I'm sure there are dozens that can be added to this list.
Same applies for Sharpnose.

Cheers but most of those aren't the sort of steepness I mean. Like Rock Idol you can bridge around, Sharpnose is 95% plumb vertical. Great climbs but I want stuff that is proper spacewalking. Zeppelin at Mother Careys is on the list, Star Gate too.

I think confidence is the key, and the only way for me to get confidence in tradding is by leading trad routes.

Yeah although as you say it has to be RECENT and CONTINUOUS trad experience. A decade of solid experience hasn't helped as much as I'd have thought.

what you need to do fiend is get weak.when i was a callow youth in my late teens i never had the strength to hang a round to place lots of gear.so it was a case of whip in a nut and go.

Not sure I like the getting weaker idea - but I do need to get faster. With me it's a case of "whip in a nut, not quite the right size, try with a different size, that's too big, realise the other one could go in better on it's size, that's better but although a better fit it could be pulled out in a fall, shit that would be nasty, better back it up, okay get a cam in next to it, finally I'm safe....and too pumped to continue" :S

Fiend, I think that is the same for all of us. Some routes however let you surrender yourself easier than others. Procrastination occurs whenever it is allowed, the hardest moves on routes are always after the rest, or leaving the ledge. You need to get on routes which just make you keep blasting on up, with no possibility of stopping.

I did a route on Saturday like this. It had a big hold just off the belay ledge and then the next big hold was bloody miles away, between were just many roundy side pulls. You had no choice but to go, at one point you were forced into this choice as there was no gear too. I find that a few of these routes do wonders for your mind-set/ability. I really know what you mean though and you don't need to worry, that's just how climbing is. That's just how commitment is.

Yeah, getting on more routes, of whatever grade and style, that demand FLOW, I think would be beneficial, I need to get used to more continuous climbing with only brief pauses for gear and stuff.

For me (when I've been going well) the desire and commitment to move quickly and commit to the different style of climbing that comes with moving over steeper ground comes from both the comfort of having done it whilst sport climbing (esp Cornice, Kilnsey, WCJ etc. - flaky, juggy and steep) which provides becoming accustomed to the different centre of gravity, AND having lots of trad mileage under ones belt which encourages less procrastination and the ability to forget about the gear and the runouts.

Yeah, I agree with doing some sport too, for the continuous climbing and getting used to steep terrain. I think the crux for me is more to do with the "trad" side but still more familiarity with the terrain is a good idea.

You say you're strong enough to do these sorts of routes, but faff a lot (or presumably enough to get knackered and have to bail/retreat/hang). Clearly you have two choices (1) get really goddamn stamina'd up to the max so you can hang around all week, or (2) climb faster.
Why are you faffing? Seems like you have the mileage to know how to place and judge gear. Do you not trust it? Are you ridiculously slow at placing gear? Do you want a minimum of 5 solid pieces when you think it's likely you'll fall?

I'm a bit wary of gear yes. I place good gear but it takes me a little while and I want it to be really good. I have quite a large fear of hitting the ground and being fucking killed or badly mashed up if the gear isn't good enough. Sometimes that gear is obvious and it's not a problem, but other times, yeah I faff.

You're partly right that getting used to falling is really beneficial, and it's part of my overall gameplan. But also I've got to learn to place good gear quicker, and learn to trust "good" gear rather than only "perfect" gear (incidentally my experiences with falling onto gear have shown that even my marginal looking gear holds....the mind accepts that fact, the heart doesn't  )

I'm sure you know this already but I reckon the key skill with steep trad is to place clusters of bomb proof gear at the rests, get the mental dialogue about the solidity of the gear over and done with at the rest and then run it out to the next rest.

Good to have it confirmed and clarified though, yeah. About the sport, I only do onsighting sport, so that's the most relevant training I guess.

Perhaps we could take Grimer's advice and mix in a bit of Californian positive thinking. So, Fiend, every morning when you wake, look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say out loud, "I am plenty strong enough on steep stuff. I am an experienced trad climber and I enjoy steep stuff! I AM GOING TO FUCKING MAKE THAT OMELETTE!!" Or something.

Still makes me totally LOL