[User deactivated.]

I'm sure there will be a few good insights in Ondra's new climbing course, but fooking $200 for it! I would have purchased a book for up to around £30, but this is taking the piss.

https://altitudeclimbing.com/lead-climbing-signup/?adb_ad_id=690195178764&adb_ad_source=google&adb_click_id=CjwKCAiAt5euBhB9EiwAdkXWO0gv20LdLqHu5957eOYAB6mbtKFLDsQzgxywlZPyTpPbQlYT7j4oNBoCUHYQAvD_BwE&adb_campaign_id=21005436194&adb_adgroup_id=158271136749&adb_target_id=kwd-355110256009&adb_placement=&adb_target=&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAt5euBhB9EiwAdkXWO0gv20LdLqHu5957eOYAB6mbtKFLDsQzgxywlZPyTpPbQlYT7j4oNBoCUHYQAvD_BwE

[Fiend]

50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.

Also, what would you rather pay for: 1000 instances of getting virtual coaching from the best and one of the most eloquent climbers alive, or one instance of a few planks being shoved across a grotty stream in the Peaks??

P.S. Just in case:

'ach romuluSngan vIqelchoHDI',

'ej bIr rIQmoH' 'ej SuvwI', QumpIn je rur https://shorturl.at/cesz8;

'ach suvwI' Qu' vIpIH.

'ach tangq 63364895 a' targhmey veqlargh.
yo' qIjDaq ba'choH'a' 'ej pIvlIj yItlhob. romuluSngan veSDujmey

'ach malja' wIHoHtaHvIS%, SoHvaD QomchoHbej Humanpu' 'e' yIchaw'.

ghotpu'bogh ponglu'chugh nuvpu'

[tim palmer]

https://latticetraining.com/product/a-climbers-guide-to-training-course/

Virtually the same price for the same thing from your friends at lattice.   

All of this stuff is a massive grift but hey ho it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.

[spidermonkey09]

it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.

Ondra has himself a Benz!

https://www.adamondra.com/introducing-quot-dolphin-quot-my-new-mercedes-benz-car-hotel-and-second-home-at-once/

[tim palmer]

it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.

Ondra has himself a Benz!

https://www.adamondra.com/introducing-quot-dolphin-quot-my-new-mercedes-benz-car-hotel-and-second-home-at-once/

Not really the same league is it. He is also the greatest performance climber of all time,  if anyone should be making some coin from this buy low, sell high, snake oil salesmanship it should be him

[spidermonkey09]

I did think it looked a bit low spec. Surely mercedes could do better than that!

[User deactivated.]

50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.

But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.

I'm not surprised that Lattice do similar on the basis that they sell branded generic yoga mats and loading pins with a huge mark up.

[Adam Lincoln]

50 video tutorials and lifetime access, hmmm seems a bit more than £30 worth to me.

But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.

I'm not surprised that Lattice do similar on the basis that they sell branded generic yoga mats and loading pins with a huge mark up.

Why are you so bothered? They don't have a gun to your head to buy a plan. They hit a niche in the market at the time so fair play to them.

[User deactivated.]

Why are you so bothered? They don't have a gun to your head to buy a plan. They hit a niche in the market at the time so fair play to them.

I'm not. This thread is in the 'news' section of the forum and this course was newsworthy IMO. We're simply discussing it.   

[remus]

https://latticetraining.com/product/a-climbers-guide-to-training-course/

Virtually the same price for the same thing from your friends at lattice.   

All of this stuff is a massive grift but hey ho it keeps the maclaren fuelled up.

I'd be interested if you had the same opinion after actually watching the lattice course. I've worked at lattice for 8 or 9 years (not as a coach mind) and I still learnt a decent amount when I was test running it. If you want to learn about training for climbing I think it's one of the best resources currently available.

If you're genuinely interested, willing to watch the full course and happy to send feedback then drop me a DM and I'll give you access.

[tim palmer]

That is a very kind offer, I will happily take you up on it and try to be open minded.

[abarro81]

But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.

15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.

The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier  Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.

[remus]

That is a very kind offer, I will happily take you up on it and try to be open minded.

Drop me a PM on here with your email address and I'll get you setup. Im on insta as remuscrimp so drop me a message there instead if it's easier.

[tim palmer]

But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.

15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.

The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier  Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.

How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear, is it not probable that all or the vast majority the improvements we see now are as a result of better and more climbing walls and the consequent earlier and easier access to climbing?

[abarro81]

How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear

Maybe I expressed myself poorly. 15 years ago "the stuff" didn't really exist in a one-stop-shop with descriptions of how to apply it to climbing - it was piecing together rumours, hearsay, articles here and there, what other sports did... 15 years ago it wasn't in a nicely put together thing (book or online multi-media service), you had to make the book yourself. I mean quality of the materials in that sense, rather than the end product being "quality" training advice. So I'm sure Jacob and Patxi knew how to train well 15 years ago, but 15 years ago it was a lot harder for the enthusiastic punter like me to access that info - it's "better" in that sense.

How do we know if any of the stuff we have today is any better than that of yesteryear, is it not probable that all or the vast majority the improvements we see now are as a result of [...] earlier and easier access to climbing?

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

[User deactivated.]

But in reality, it is the same sort of content that would have been put in a book 15 years ago.

15 years ago stuff of any real quality wasn't in existence for climbing. Even 10 years ago, what was out there was written as a hobby and not to make money as a business with emplyees etc. - Horst was writting books whilst being a weatherman or whatever. I wrote my little training pdf 11 years ago and chatted to Tom about whether to write a book - we decided against it as the time investment would not have been worth it.

The free or cheap stuff is still out there plenty for those who want it, the neatly curated and well presented packages are there for those who want to pay a couple of hundred quid to be handed 10 hours worth of stuff rather than have to work through lots more hours worth of searching, reading, working out what to listen to, etc... Pay your money (or not) and make your choice. There are lots of things in the world where you can DIY it for free/cheap or pay money to existing experts to make your life easier  Climbing largely isn't how it used to be, with people just putting info out in pdfs and dodgy translations of Macia training plans, but that's partly because people want videos and smartphone apps these days... I miss the old ways a bit, but if I were young now I'd probably be asking for these as presents to shortcut reading PlanetFear articles by Gresh and searching rowing forums trying to understand how other sports get fit.

I agree with what you're saying really, i'm basically being the 'old man shakes fist at cloud' meme. The world is different now, although Ned Feehally managed to put out a nice book not too long ago, and Dave Mac's is still relevant too. (I'm aware that Ned and Dave are not Ondra + support team)

Sometimes, I deliberate on whether the time investment is worth it for a 2 hour podcast with a climber/coach for the scarce, useful bits of information I might hear. This feels like a more extreme version of that problem. I'm slightly curious whether Ondra has some little bits of useful information that I've not heard before, but not curious enough to fork out $200, especially after seeing the taster video on heelhooking, which seems incredibly basic - I saw more nuance in a YouTube video with Drew Ruana (who's not shit at heelhooks himself).

I expect it's probably a nice product for people who are newer to climbing and not the types who regularly frequent forums to discuss argue about the intricacies of training and marginal gains.

As much as it's fun to poke at Lattice, I appreciate that they do actual 1:1 personalised coaching. That's something that I thought was worth paying for and did for a period in 2022. I found it to be good and don't regret doing it, although in hindsight there were a lot of things programmed that I now believe were ineffective for my goals and I've made better progress sorting my own training.

[tim palmer]

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.

Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.

[tim palmer]

That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.

but at least booze can be delicious.

[Dingdong]

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.

Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.

If you are not a child prodigy but instead a 30 something year old with work, family, life commitments etc having someone write a plan for you takes all the guesswork and time management out of the equation and means you can focus on consistent structured training that in my opinion, no doubt benefits people. Whether it’s lattice or any other of the hundreds of coaches out there, I don’t think anyone goes into it expecting a magic bullet but just a hand with structuring their training. Especially around certain projects. Also the accountability aspect helps a lot of people too when they have to report into a coach…

[Wellsy]

Accountability is a big part of it for me

[abarro81]

Sometimes, I deliberate on whether the time investment is worth it for a 2 hour podcast with a climber/coach for the scarce, useful bits of information I might hear. This feels like a more extreme version of that problem. I'm slightly curious whether Ondra has some little bits of useful information that I've not heard before, but not curious enough to fork out $200

I expect it's probably a nice product for people who are newer to climbing and not the types who regularly frequent forums to discuss argue about the intricacies of training and marginal gains.

Yup, agree with all of that!

[abarro81]

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over

Ah, here's where I think our views differ. I think the key driver in the change in top-end performance (e.g., the number of people climbing 9b or 8C+ or more) between 15 years ago and now is likely to be the larger pool of talent and younger starting age. However, I think it is much easier for an averagely-talented and quite motived climber to achieve 8c now that it was 15 years ago, and a key driver for that is kneepads much more accessible knowledge on how to improve at climbing and train for climbing (and widespread testimonies of the improvements that that can bring)

Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).

[lukeyboy]

I think one of the big differences between the lattice style program of today vs 15 years ago is that it's supported by a very large pool of relevant data, rather than the n=1 "this is what worked for me" type training philosophies of the past.

[stone]

Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).

I'm also baffled by people apparently viewing it as unseemly for people to get paid for providing climbing training advice.

It's a luxury service product. Perhaps it would be better if more people had a vocation being care workers or whatever rather than supplying luxuries. But as luxury products go, it seems to me pretty much the hardest one for me to understand any objection to it.

[Bradders]

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over. That being said I am sure I waste money on things which are a lot more pointless.

Anyway I will be true to my word and watch the lattice course and you never know maybe I will be a convert.

If you are not a child prodigy but instead a 30 something year old with work, family, life commitments etc having someone write a plan for you takes all the guesswork and time management out of the equation and means you can focus on consistent structured training that in my opinion, no doubt benefits people. Whether it’s lattice or any other of the hundreds of coaches out there, I don’t think anyone goes into it expecting a magic bullet but just a hand with structuring their training. Especially around certain projects. Also the accountability aspect helps a lot of people too when they have to report into a coach…

I suppose the issue for Tim there being that he is a 40(?) something with two kids and a full time job etc. yet still manages to knock off 8Bs on his holidays.

This all feels very akin for me to people paying for financial advice, in the sense that at heart managing your money for most people is really very simple and can be boiled down to a few extremely basic principles. And yet, I suspect the number of people who make it through life without ever worrying about money is vanishingly small. So whilst it really is very easy to learn the principles yourself and apply these to all the scenarios you find yourself in, most people benefit from having an "expert" guide them, especially as those scenarios get more complex and intricate, or when ego overtakes income / wealth (ability / strength in climbing).

The issue, which is what clearly happens in finance, is if the industry then ends up overcomplicating things for people, which generally leads to poorer outcomes if regulation doesn't intervene. And there will always be people who are able to do it themselves, but I think it's fairly uncharitable for those lucky few to poor scorn on both those who need help and those trying to provide it. It's the climbing equivalent of Pete making success in day trading look easy and suggesting everyone could do the same (much as I respect both Tim and Pete!).

Regarding the idea that the general improvement in the population level climbing ability is down to the improvement in facilities; I think that's really simplistic and ignores the fact that the two things (improved facilities and improved training knowledge) have occurred at precisely the same time, so unravelling one from the other is impossible. I think they're so heavily linked you couldn't really have had one without the other and vice versa.