Quote from: petejh on January 14, 2024, 07:42:20 pmQuote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 01:35:23 pmThe people now starting climbing will lap this stuff up. They are happy to pay for a coach, a lattice plan, a diet plan, guided technique lessons. It’s not like it used to be.Why would a wall offer development classes for just the price of your entry when they could charge a tenner. The same people are happy to pay Ł100 a month for some magic green powder so why not for access for coached sessions at a wall. People are used to paying for guided sessions in most aspects of gym life and will happily do so for climbing. There is no doubt it would work... replied Tom from Lattice Training, when asked by the bank’s commercial manager about market potential during his meeting to apply for a business loan.The old romantic in me hates what lattice etc has done to climbing but can see why it’s happened. Anyone climbing less than 8a/A really doesn’t need to be so structured though. However the businessman in me finds them absolutely fascinating. Only wish I had thought of it before them. Computer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.
Quote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 01:35:23 pmThe people now starting climbing will lap this stuff up. They are happy to pay for a coach, a lattice plan, a diet plan, guided technique lessons. It’s not like it used to be.Why would a wall offer development classes for just the price of your entry when they could charge a tenner. The same people are happy to pay Ł100 a month for some magic green powder so why not for access for coached sessions at a wall. People are used to paying for guided sessions in most aspects of gym life and will happily do so for climbing. There is no doubt it would work... replied Tom from Lattice Training, when asked by the bank’s commercial manager about market potential during his meeting to apply for a business loan.
The people now starting climbing will lap this stuff up. They are happy to pay for a coach, a lattice plan, a diet plan, guided technique lessons. It’s not like it used to be.Why would a wall offer development classes for just the price of your entry when they could charge a tenner. The same people are happy to pay Ł100 a month for some magic green powder so why not for access for coached sessions at a wall. People are used to paying for guided sessions in most aspects of gym life and will happily do so for climbing. There is no doubt it would work.
Quote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 07:55:38 pmComputer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.For what it's worth, every plan is written by a coach. Computer generated plans are hard to do to a high standard.
Computer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.
Quote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 07:55:38 pmQuote from: petejh on January 14, 2024, 07:42:20 pmQuote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 01:35:23 pmThe people now starting climbing will lap this stuff up. They are happy to pay for a coach, a lattice plan, a diet plan, guided technique lessons. It’s not like it used to be.Why would a wall offer development classes for just the price of your entry when they could charge a tenner. The same people are happy to pay Ł100 a month for some magic green powder so why not for access for coached sessions at a wall. People are used to paying for guided sessions in most aspects of gym life and will happily do so for climbing. There is no doubt it would work... replied Tom from Lattice Training, when asked by the bank’s commercial manager about market potential during his meeting to apply for a business loan.The old romantic in me hates what lattice etc has done to climbing but can see why it’s happened. Anyone climbing less than 8a/A really doesn’t need to be so structured though. However the businessman in me finds them absolutely fascinating. Only wish I had thought of it before them. Computer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.Oh yeah I agree - it's an obvious and good business model. Don't mistake my jibbing for anything other than mild amusement at an easy target - a bit like the 'climbing goes mainstream' thread on here.I do think that, as with most successful disruptive businesses, there will be unintended consequences of creating an environment where training, data and benchmarking are so much a part of climbing for newcomers. Taken to extreme you can imagine someone not believing they can do something unless the training data says so. But the flip side of that coin is the training will no doubt have helped loads of people achieve what they didn't think they could. Not saying its good or bad, it is what it is. While I'd never pay them anything, I like using a lattice board and I'm glad of their freely shared info, app, training boards etc.Its similar in some ways to guiding in the alpine regions, where guides alter the fabric of the climbing environment to suit their business model.
Agree with most of your sentiments.Wonder if there's a lattice equivalent for fell-running yet. A lot of the things that can be said about 'romantic old school reasons for getting into climbing' can be said about reasons for getting into fell-running. edit: Probably not.. as there isn't an equivalent to the 'indoor walls market' in fell running.
Quote from: remus on January 14, 2024, 08:09:21 pmQuote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 07:55:38 pmComputer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.For what it's worth, every plan is written by a coach. Computer generated plans are hard to do to a high standard.Lattices maybe but many are not and I’m pretty sure you will be working on AI to write them in the future. If you don’t you will be out of business.
I do think that, as with most successful disruptive businesses, there will be unintended consequences of creating an environment where training, data and benchmarking are so much a part of climbing for newcomers. Taken to extreme you can imagine someone not believing they can do something unless the training data says so.
Quote from: petejh on January 14, 2024, 08:57:21 pmI do think that, as with most successful disruptive businesses, there will be unintended consequences of creating an environment where training, data and benchmarking are so much a part of climbing for newcomers. Taken to extreme you can imagine someone not believing they can do something unless the training data says so. I don't even think you're taking that to the extreme. When Lattice and others first started releasing finger strength data, I discovered that I had 7A fingers, so for years I prioritised finger boarding more than I should have and avoided crimpy boulders. Out of curiosity, I just checked the Lattice 'my fingers' test to see where i'm at now and the result is that my fingers are still "much weaker than expected" for my max bouldering grade. However, in recent times I've realised that I actually climb about as well as my mates on crimpy stuff - all of whom test much better than me on a fingerboard. This experience has finally given me back the confidence that I lost due to the data.
Given that how good you are at hanging 1/2 crimp off a 20mm edge often has little to do with how strong you are hanging off small crimps (or pockets, or anything else other than a decent half crimp edge), using a poor score on that metric to conclude you'll be bad at crimpy boulders seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what you just measured...
Quote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 09:01:50 pmQuote from: remus on January 14, 2024, 08:09:21 pmQuote from: gme on January 14, 2024, 07:55:38 pmComputer automated training plans at 40 a month. Thanks very much sir.For what it's worth, every plan is written by a coach. Computer generated plans are hard to do to a high standard.Lattices maybe but many are not and I’m pretty sure you will be working on AI to write them in the future. If you don’t you will be out of business.This could only ever be said by someone who's never had a coach. The whole point is human connection and support; the minutiae of what to do and when is entirely secondary. Obviously this doesn't apply to buy online training plans with no further ongoing support. Quote from: petejh on January 14, 2024, 08:57:21 pmI do think that, as with most successful disruptive businesses, there will be unintended consequences of creating an environment where training, data and benchmarking are so much a part of climbing for newcomers. Taken to extreme you can imagine someone not believing they can do something unless the training data says so. This has already happened. Their longstanding focus on the Lattice edge, and how much you can hang from it with one or two hands as a guage for climbing grade has had a definite impact on a lot of people's internal assessments of their capabilities. Was recently discussed on the Nugget podcast I think and I've spoken to a few people about it. Certainly for me it had a detrimental effect on my approach to climbing and training that took a long while to get past.
Given that how good you are at hanging 1/2 crimp off a 20mm edge often has little to do with how strong you are hanging off small crimps (or pockets, or anything else other than a decent half crimp edge), using a poor score on that metric to conclude you'll be bad at crimpy boulders seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what you just measured... Plenty of people with "strong" fingers on one finger strength test and "weak" fingers on another.
Out of interest, what's your current score on the fingerboard? While warming up the other day a mate was testing some youth club kids on a Tindeq. He pointed me at it and said "have a pull" - I wouldn't say I was fully warmed up for max hangs but not far off. Managed 68kg right hand, left hand much worse but that's not surprising as I am a bit weak. I rarely do any fingerboarding these days as it's not really a weakness of mine for my grade/ambitions.
Interesting anecdotes Liam and Bradders. Have you both started climbing within the last 10 years? And did you quickly get into structured training rather than just going climbing?
Quote from: abarro81 on January 14, 2024, 10:18:01 pmGiven that how good you are at hanging 1/2 crimp off a 20mm edge often has little to do with how strong you are hanging off small crimps (or pockets, or anything else other than a decent half crimp edge), using a poor score on that metric to conclude you'll be bad at crimpy boulders seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what you just measured... Plenty of people with "strong" fingers on one finger strength test and "weak" fingers on another.You know that and I know that now, but as a naive, newer climber I didn't understand the intracacies of finger strength and that's the problem. The language they use is literally "Your score of X held makes you much weaker than expected for your bouldering grade"!Quote from: Fultonius on January 14, 2024, 10:21:22 pmOut of interest, what's your current score on the fingerboard? While warming up the other day a mate was testing some youth club kids on a Tindeq. He pointed me at it and said "have a pull" - I wouldn't say I was fully warmed up for max hangs but not far off. Managed 68kg right hand, left hand much worse but that's not surprising as I am a bit weak. I rarely do any fingerboarding these days as it's not really a weakness of mine for my grade/ambitions. On a Tindeq, I pulled my best ever scores last week on my homemade edge (around 23mm): 74.5kg on the left and 73.9kg on the right. I'm still sitting in last place in the Top Gear style 'punters on a reasonably sized edge' leaderboard that I force all visitors to the board room to partake in It might be relevant to state that I test much better on micros (relatively) e.g. I can do over 50kg on a 6mm edge full crimped. Quote from: petejh on January 14, 2024, 10:32:25 pmInteresting anecdotes Liam and Bradders. Have you both started climbing within the last 10 years? And did you quickly get into structured training rather than just going climbing?I think it was 8 years ago when I started, but I didn't start climbing outside and taking it seriously until about 4 years ago, I just went round the Depot circuits, for the socials mostly. I came into climbing with high general strength, but I didn't really start structured training for climbing (other than random bits of 4x4s and stuff at the wall) until I started climbing outside. As many will know, I've since become a complete training nerd. I genuinely enjoy it!
Flipping heck your leaderboard must be dead strong. I managed 52kg on my strong hand on a 20mm edge today (weighing in at 70kg this evening)
My own score does tend to correlate with how well i'm going though. E.g. last week when I hit a PB it was after doing my warm up board problems and thinking everything felt very easy.
Quote from: abarro81 on January 14, 2024, 10:18:01 pmGiven that how good you are at hanging 1/2 crimp off a 20mm edge often has little to do with how strong you are hanging off small crimps (or pockets, or anything else other than a decent half crimp edge), using a poor score on that metric to conclude you'll be bad at crimpy boulders seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what you just measured...OK (I agree btw)... so then why measure it and make it such a central part of the 'product'*? Why not measure using a metric that does correlate well with crimpy bouldering?* because it's a common hold on many commercial fingerboards. Because it's not too grim to hold. Because it's more achievable than a rat edge. Because people are attracted to simple ideas (20mm hang) more than complicated stuff (body position, momentum, tension, determination, tactics). Insert other reasons...
lattice have even been working on it by attaching force plate to feet and handholds to see how weight is distributed by climbers.
Wonder if there's a lattice equivalent for fell-running yet.