Quote from: Gritter on June 25, 2023, 05:24:25 pmExtremist propaganda exists on both poles of this divisive topic. The ADL piece being one example It wasn't clear to me in what respect the ADL report constituted propaganda.Could you explain that for me, please?
Extremist propaganda exists on both poles of this divisive topic. The ADL piece being one example
"Gender Critical" is used as a label by people who oppose trans rights,
This may be true, but it's also used as a descriptor by lots of normal people.
Quote from: Wellsy on June 25, 2023, 04:03:12 pmEither that or capitalism sucks shit, which is my own personal viewpointYou may disagree, although I'd point out, you're in the top fraction of a percent, globally, so you probably think it is a good systemIt's increasingly typical of members of your generation to think that.. go get em' you rebel But it's very much said like a privileged westerner without a better alternative. Stats-wise, top 1.1%, not fraction of a % (although it doesn't break down the top 1.1% further..). According to this: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/distribution-of-global-wealth-chart/Anyone in the UK with assets over £85k puts them, at minimum, in the top 11.1% of wealth globally. That's a huge number of people in Britain once family assets passed down from the declining boomers are accounted for, as they increasingly leave this world and your generation discovers that these things come in long cycles.
Either that or capitalism sucks shit, which is my own personal viewpointYou may disagree, although I'd point out, you're in the top fraction of a percent, globally, so you probably think it is a good system
Quote from: joel182 on June 24, 2023, 08:27:43 pm"Gender Critical" is used as a label by people who oppose trans rights, This may be true, but it's also used as a descriptor by lots of normal people. E.g. I would say I'm gender critical by how the gov or BBC would use the term, but not how you use it.
Firstly, ...
Quote from: abarro81 on June 26, 2023, 10:48:04 amQuote from: joel182 on June 24, 2023, 08:27:43 pm"Gender Critical" is used as a label by people who oppose trans rights, This may be true, but it's also used as a descriptor by lots of normal people. E.g. I would say I'm gender critical by how the gov or BBC would use the term, but not how you use it. I'd suggest looking at the people who the gov and BBC (for example) call "gender critical" and treat as paradigmatic of that position, and who it's fair to say that gender critical feminists would consider to be leaders and key figures -- e.g. people like Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey, Maya Forstater, Julie Bindel, and Joanna Cherry (not to mention Graham Linehan and J K Rowling).Have a look at them and what they're actually demanding.For example, one of their big goals at present is rewriting the Equality Act 2004 to remove some of trans people's existing legal rights.It's pretty hard to call that anything other than "opposition to trans rights".(Unless you want to try claiming "No, I'm not opposed to trans rights, I just think they have too many rights and should have some of them taken away"?)If you're not down with that, then you might want to reconsider whether you really want to call yourself "gender critical", because it's going to give people very much the wrong impression of what you believe.If you'll excuse a link to Wikipedia, they have a pretty good run-down of the history of "gender critical feminism" in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-critical_feminismYou seem to think that it just means "believing sex and gender are different things" or "believing biological sex is real" or something like that, and that's really not the case -- it refers to a pretty specific set of political beliefs and goals.
I am personally very critical of gender.
I'm not going to stop anyone identifying as whatever they choose, but I feel the movement is tragically regressive.
But you can support that and still understand that (many, not all) people still have have a sense of gender identity, and that being able to identify as a man/woman/other (and have that recognized in law, as long as law makes a distinction between the genders) is important to them.
Quote from: slab_happy on June 26, 2023, 04:08:30 pmBut you can support that and still understand that (many, not all) people still have have a sense of gender identity, and that being able to identify as a man/woman/other (and have that recognized in law, as long as law makes a distinction between the genders) is important to them.I would be interested to hear what proportion of people have a gender identity. It is personally a concept that is totally alien to me and I'm sure the majority of people do not feel their gender in any way at all.From the outside it appears akin to religious experience. Convincing to those touched, baffling to those outside.
It really doesn't just mean "believing sex and gender are different things" or "believing biological sex is real" or whatever -- it refers to a pretty specific set of political beliefs and goals.
Why spend so much time agonising over what 'might' happen were someone to transition and then regret it, rather than focusing on all of the cases in which it's been enormously successful and improved quality of life and prevented suicide? If you care more about hypothetical kids than real ones, there's a decent possibility that you (sorry - 'some people') don't actually care all that much, and that 'won't somebody please think of the children?' is as hysterical and empty as an expression of concern as it's ever been
I would quite like it if we didn't put vulnerable 15 year old girls with a slew of co-morbid mental health conditions and complex trauma -- it'd be nice if we didn't put them on cross-sex hormones and a waiting list for a fucking mastectomy at their second 45 minute appointment, and then discharge them when they express a desire to detransition[1][2],
Are you aware that the composition of referrals to gender identity clinics has shifted from ~70% male to 70% female in the same period across Europe and North America?
Are you aware that referrals to gender identity clinics have increased exponentially over the last decade in every country for which data is available?
Are you aware that all these countries have abandoned the "gender-affirming" model of care, which only the United States continues to cling to in the face of growing evidence?
Oh wow, so you seriously maintain that the UK has not abandoned the "gender-affirming" approach? You know that puberty blockers have been banned outright in under 16s outside of clinical trials, right?
There's currently some fighting about whether under-16s will still be able to get puberty blockers without consenting to be used in research (which the government are pushing for, but forcing people to consent to be used in research in order to get medical treatment is normally considered to violate a number of principles on human research).