[Wellsy]

Where do the trans rights activists who want to “punch TERFS”,  say things like “suck on my lady dick” and attend rallies in black balaclavas fit into the taxonomy of disgust at vulnerable people being threatened?

By the way, can anyone answer my perfectly reasonable request for figures that I made a little further up the thread?

I tend to cut billionaires who use their free time vilifying marginal groups on twitter considerably less slack than members of marginalised groups who are lashing out over their experience of a pretty cruelly transphobic society.

[spidermonkey09]

Where do the trans rights activists who want to “punch TERFS”,  say things like “suck on my lady dick” and attend rallies in black balaclavas fit into the taxonomy of disgust at vulnerable people being threatened?

By the way, can anyone answer my perfectly reasonable request for figures that I made a little further up the thread?

I think that's pretty grim behaviour (although wearing a balaclava is not in and of itself a problem).
Are gender critical people vulnerable in the same way trans people are though? I don't think so, it's an unequal power relationship.

[Droyd]

Bradders: Apologies if that came across as combative - it was intended to express frustration regarding the disingenuity of Rowling and the podcast, not a comment on your listening. That's on me for communicating poorly.

Wellsy: Also not laying in, but on the subject of male violence: if she actually regularly talked about male violence separately from violence perpetuated by people who were born as men then I might believe her, but she doesn't so I don't (again, not having a go, just figured it was worth addressing).

Sean: No clue on statistics but curious as to the relevance of percentage that medically transition to the discussion. With regard to people saying ghastly shit on the internet: leaving aside the equally horrendous things said on the other side of the argument (detailed above and not relevant because nothing justifies any of these statements), using the most extreme parts of any movement to discredit the movement as a whole is a crap tactic. Rowling actively endorsing the people who say awful shit, however, is important in terms of showing what she believes.

[seankenny]

This (Wellsey’s point) is a mirror argument of why “Jews don’t count” - they are often rich, and therefore racism against them is lesser. Threatening to punch a woman is less shocking if the woman is a billionaire? Is anti-Semitism against George Soros lesser because he is also very rich?

Last time I checked getting all emotional and “lashing out” at a woman wasn’t at all acceptable, but perhaps times are changing.

[slab_happy]

Where do the trans rights activists who want to “punch TERFS”,  say things like “suck on my lady dick” and attend rallies in black balaclavas fit into the taxonomy of disgust at vulnerable people being threatened?

I thought you were out?

They belong in the realm of largely-fictional threats, with a side of shitty troll behaviour by anonymous internet randos who may or may not even be trans.

Actual violence is bad! Actual threats of violence are bad! I do not condone them!

However, Joanna Cherry holding up a photoshopped joke meme of an anime character holding a gun and pretending to think this is a serious death threat is utter nonsense.

If I say "I wish the Tories would all fucking die in a fire", that is not a threat of arson.

"Suck my dick" is an insulting and dismissing phrase, similar to "go fuck yourself." It has been deployed by plenty of people who don't even have dicks.

The use of "suck my dick" on a placard is not a rape threat, it's an expression of anger.

N.B. I am absolutely sure that J K Rowling has received scary and obscene rape and death threats, because she's a famous woman on the internet expressing controversial opinions, and this happens to everyone in that category, including women far less famous than her, including women whose controversial opinions are their support for trans rights (and I know multiple people who've had to report some alarming threats to police) and certainly including anyone whose offense is being a trans woman on the internet.

However, making the claim that these threats are all coming from trans people, that the trans rights movement condones it, and that this proves that trans people are inherently scary and dangerous and out to harm women -- that is some bullshit.

I am actually sure that Suella Braverman (for example) receives her share of scary and obscene threats because, again, woman in a public role, doing things which make people dislike her.

However, if she were to hold up these threats and declare that it proves asylum-seekers and their defenders are dangerous predators who are out to harm innocent British women -- we would call bullshit.

[slab_happy]

I think that's pretty grim behaviour (although wearing a balaclava is not in and of itself a problem).

If I recall correctly, the infamous case of "black balaclavas" that usually gets cited is the University of Sussex, where students didn't actually wear balaclavas but hoodies and masks, partly because it was October 2021 and there was a pandemic going on, and partly because they were scared of retaliation against them by the university authorities, who fully supported Katheen Stock and had threatened to investigate and punish students for protesting:

https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/10/18/kathleen-stock-university-of-sussex-protest/

[Wellsy]

This (Wellsey’s point) is a mirror argument of why “Jews don’t count” - they are often rich, and therefore racism against them is lesser. Threatening to punch a woman is less shocking if the woman is a billionaire? Is anti-Semitism against George Soros lesser because he is also very rich?

Last time I checked getting all emotional and “lashing out” at a woman wasn’t at all acceptable, but perhaps times are changing.

1) Conflating my point with antisemitism is quite low, imo

2) Rowling actively takes part in the oppression of those people so I think it's reasonable for them to despise her, tbh.

[slab_happy]

"Suck my dick" is an insulting and dismissing phrase, similar to "go fuck yourself." It has been deployed by plenty of people who don't even have dicks.

In fact a (cis) lesbian friend of mine is especially fond of it, often in the form of "Suck my purple sparkly dick."

[slab_happy]

This (Wellsey’s point) is a mirror argument of why “Jews don’t count” - they are often rich, and therefore racism against them is lesser. Threatening to punch a woman is less shocking if the woman is a billionaire? Is anti-Semitism against George Soros lesser because he is also very rich?

Last time I checked getting all emotional and “lashing out” at a woman wasn’t at all acceptable, but perhaps times are changing.

1) Conflating my point with antisemitism is quite low, imo

2) Rowling actively takes part in the oppression of those people so I think it's reasonable for them to despise her, tbh.

More to the point, no big-name (or medium-name or small-name) trans rights activists are endorsing actual violence or threats of violence!

When the other side has to resort to "someone at a demo had a placard about guillotining TERFs and ... no-one knows who the hell that was but the other demonstrators mostly thought it was really stupid and looks bad, actually" or "someone on the internet posted a meme of an anime girl holding a gun" or "some students wore face masks" as evidence that the trans rights movement as a whole is violent and dangerous, that constitutes reaching.

When it comes to things like the occasional "suck my dick" placard, I'm with you in considering that a very understandable expression of anger and frustration (especially in a political context in which trans women's penises are treated as the most horrifying and disgusting things ever and justification for taking their rights away, while they're simultaneously denied access to surgery to get rid of them).

But that's also because it's not an actual threat of any sort.

Which has to be endlessly re-emphasized when some people are so keen to claim that the "TRAs" are so scary and violent and threatening and hate women etc. etc. etc..

[Fiend]

I've been waiting for a trans topic on here for a while (mine was going to be about the tg-in-sport issue, but I was too wary of posting it). Will catch up on this one later but for now if anyone hasn't seen it, this should be essential viewing before considering any TG issues:

[Dingdong]

I've been waiting for a trans topic on here for a while (mine was going to be about the tg-in-sport issue, but I was too wary of posting it). Will catch up on this one later but for now if anyone hasn't seen it, this should be essential viewing before considering any TG issues:

This is hands down my fav episode of jam crack. I’ve shown it to quite a few people and I thought was incredibly insightful and impactful.

[petejh]

Yeah great interview that. Required viewing. I'll always remember watching her, when she was a he, flashing The Brute at the Diamond and then in the same sesh falling off close to the flash (and FA..can't remember?) of Pink Panther. At that time no-one had come close to flashing the Brute. She pissed it, with bad beta, more of an onsight.

See from 30mins on the interview for a clear explanation of why a great many trans people don't 'fully' transition - it's obviously not exactly an easy journey to begin to undertake to put it mildly and must require a lot of courage, which deters many.

To slabhappy, great defending of the cause. For me you cheapened your position (and the debate) slightly by using this line:

''If I say "I wish the Tories would all fucking die in a fire", that is not a threat of arson.

It isn't. But your casual use of this as a (hopefully jokey) analogy is illuminating. I bet you wouldn't have felt OK using as a jokey analogy, "I wish blacks, Jews, trans people would all fucking die in a fire".

If you wouldn't have been OK saying that, then it probably isn't cool to feel OK saying it about any other group either. Would almost give you slack if you'd said 'paedophile murderers' but even then, nah. However much you might detest a group, they're still just as human as you.

[edshakey]

To slabhappy, great defending of the cause. For me you cheapened your position (and the debate) slightly by using this line:

''If I say "I wish the Tories would all fucking die in a fire", that is not a threat of arson.

It isn't. But your casual use of this as a (hopefully jokey) analogy is illuminating. I bet you wouldn't have felt OK using as a jokey analogy, "I wish blacks, Jews, trans people would all fucking die in a fire".

If you wouldn't have been OK saying that, then it probably isn't cool to feel OK saying it about any other group either. Would almost give you slack if you'd said 'paedophile murderers' but even then, nah. However much you might detest a group, they're still just as human as you.

I do vaguely agree, I'm never one for aggressive language like this.

However, I suppose there is some nuance to it when on one hand you've got groups of people with characteristics that they cannot change, and are just trying to live their lives ("blacks, Jews, trans people"), and on the other it's people with a political position they have chosen to take, who are arguably seeking to make their own lives better at the expense of others.

Yeah great interview that. Required viewing.

Will add myself to the list of people applauding this podcast. No distinct episode of any podcast has stuck in my head quite like this - one of the best interviews I've ever listened to.

[Will Hunt]

This is a peculiar discussion/debate because I feel that I probably disagree with Sean but don't actually know because he hasn't actually said what he thinks. I suspect he is what he describes as "gender critical" but that could mean any one of many different opinions with varying degrees of nuance. The thread jumped straight to talking about the people involved in the debate.

FWIW, as much as I agree with a lot of what Slab has said, if you're arguing with people who are using male sexual violence as a stick to beat trans people with, it is phenomenally stupid to opt for "suck my dick".

[seankenny]

This is a peculiar discussion/debate because I feel that I probably disagree with Sean but don't actually know because he hasn't actually said what he thinks.

Thanks for this Will, but really, who needs to know? The vaguest scepticism is enough to be described as a TERF and cast into the darkness, regardless of what one truly thinks. It is after all easier to pretend away any conflicts over rights than dealing with them through debate. Better to shout “suck my dick” and harass female academics than it is to debate respectfully*, which leads to perfectly decent people minimising some very unpleasant behaviour. No, turning up to protests in balaclavas has happened more than once and it’s really not okay (for example).

Cynicism aside, I’m going to make a proper reply, but not immediately as I have other things to do first which will almost certainly prove more fruitful and satisfying.



* In general, less so on here. But going on a forum to tell someone they are simply wrong about some numbers but then ignoring their request for some more accurate numbers isn’t exactly the pinnacle of discussion either.

[wasbeen]

I am trying very hard not to care that much about trans issues, mainly because it seems that it is an issue that it is increasingly being jumped upon politicians and the media to create divide between the "liberal" left and the anti-woke right. By caring too much and arguing it feels like we are playing their game. We are getting gross and disproportionate over reporting of a trans "outrages" e.g. an athlete winning one bike race out of 100s in the calendar, or a few trans prisoners' out of thousands of inmates.

That is not to say that there is not a discussion to be had but I think that is better served by quiet reasoned discussion of the science/ethics etc. by people who know what they are talking about. I do not fall within that category.

[slab_happy]

But going on a forum to tell someone they are simply wrong about some numbers but then ignoring their request for some more accurate numbers isn’t exactly the pinnacle of discussion either.

I explained why the claim you were making was spurious and based on inappropriately trying to compare two very different kinds of data, one of which is an incredibly loose estimate of something (the total number of people who might be trans including people who aren't out) where we can't have anything like hard numbers.

You're welcome to retract it, if you'd like.

However, that doesn't then make it my job to produce the hard numbers (which, as far as I know, doesn't exist) for you.

Especially since I've already explained why I don't think it's "pertinent to the discussion" in any way.

[seankenny]

Me: the vast majority of trans people don’t medically transition at all

You: there are a lot of trans women out there who still have their penises

So we’re arguing on the difference between “vast” and “a lot” based on no actual evidence, at least that one side will accept? And the difference between the two claims which we’ve not got evidence for is enough to make one description “spurious”? Well, maybe.

I should note clearly, in fairness, that lacking longitudinal data my “at all” claim is also not based on evidence. If anyone has that data I’d love to see it, even if it’s flawed - I know enough about social science statistics to cope.

[ali k]

I am trying very hard not to care that much about trans issues, mainly because it seems that it is an issue that it is increasingly being jumped upon politicians and the media to create divide between the "liberal" left and the anti-woke right. By caring too much and arguing it feels like we are playing their game.

That is not to say that there is not a discussion to be had but I think that is better served by quiet reasoned discussion of the science/ethics etc.

It's yet another wedge issue being exploited by the govt and helped along by the media. I'm fucking sick of hearing large portions of interviews with politicians being devoted to a question about how many willies a woman can possess, or some swivel-eyed Tory MP wading in to a discussion they have zero knowledge or personal experience of. As if that's the most pressing issue of the day.

[Will Hunt]

Sean, if this is at all pertinent then say why you think it is. Otherwise we just have a pointless and annoying argument about one data point. Or just say what you think about the topic?

[El Mocho]

Better to shout “suck my dick” and harass female academics than it is to debate respectfully*, which leads to perfectly decent people minimising some very unpleasant behaviour. No, turning up to protests in balaclavas has happened more than once and it’s really not okay (for example).

Using 3 examples of Trans activists acting in unacceptable ways when the overwhelming majority of abuse is directed in the other direction (people wearing black balaclavas vs hard right nazis at protests...) is maybe not the best way of asking for a balanced and respectful debate! However I do agree with your sentiment that this is a debate where respect should be shown to all sides.

For personal reasons I am pretty sensitive to abuse directed towards the trans community, both of the more obvious anti-trans sentiment but also from more respected 'balanced' sources. In a 'real science of sport' podcast from a while ago one of the podcast hosts refers to trans females as "male, even though I know they won't like it". Pretty hard to have a respectful, scientific debate when one side doesn't have the respect/compassion to even use the correct pronouns. It's a pity as in the past I'd felt the RSinS podcast had had good, scientific debates around these issues, but since listening to the podcast from a while back (where there were other issue in the way they discussed it) I've not been prepared to listen to any more.

I'm not planning on engaging in the debate on here as I'd likely get too worked up + slab_happy is doing a better job of it than I would, but I will be reading the views, especially the ones different to mine with interest, so please keep them coming and as Sean asked please keep it all respectful.

[Wellsy]

I am trying very hard not to care that much about trans issues, mainly because it seems that it is an issue that it is increasingly being jumped upon politicians and the media to create divide between the "liberal" left and the anti-woke right. By caring too much and arguing it feels like we are playing their game.

That is not to say that there is not a discussion to be had but I think that is better served by quiet reasoned discussion of the science/ethics etc.

It's yet another wedge issue being exploited by the govt and helped along by the media. I'm fucking sick of hearing large portions of interviews with politicians being devoted to a question about how many willies a woman can possess, or some swivel-eyed Tory MP wading in to a discussion they have zero knowledge or personal experience of. As if that's the most pressing issue of the day.

I do think it is a pressing issue though, because trans people experience a lot of discrimination, hate etc, and a lot of prominent British politicians, journalists, writers etc across the political spectrum are aggressively transphobic. And that is increasingly creating an atmosphere which is hostile to trans people, many of whom live in fear a lot of the time.

Now I do think there should be an attempt to engage in some kind of constructive dialogue. But when powerful people of influence use that position to spread transphobic nonsense, and members of a vulnerable group then get upset and lash out, I have considerable sympathy for their position. Its easy for me to stay respectful, I'm a cis white guy, middle class, straight etc. I'm not subject to such broad institutionalised denial of my identity as a valid existence.

This has come up time and time again in many struggled for civil rights and dignity, the counter argument of "if only you'd ask for it respectfully I'd be prepared to listen..." time and time again we've been shown that isn't true (the "concern trolling" position)

I don't agree with death threats being sent to JK Rowling but it's definitely a TERF tactic to home directly in on the actions of a tiny minority to defend the consistent transphobia that comes from Rowling. It doesn't remotely excuse anything.

[seankenny]

Sean, if this is at all pertinent then say why you think it is. Otherwise we just have a pointless and annoying argument about one data point. Or just say what you think about the topic?

It’s complicated subject, right? And so I would like to treat it respectfully and carefully - doubly so given that I could lose friends or employment opportunities over the issue (but less so because I’m a man, obviously). My point is not to have an annoying argument over a data point but to highlight how little data we actually have and to acknowledge that through a more temperate approach.

[ali k]

I do think it is a pressing issue though, because trans people experience a lot of discrimination, hate etc,

Hopefully the takeaway from my post wasn't the final sentence. It's clearly an important topic and needs debating and resolving in certain areas like competitive sport and personal safety etc. but it's frustrating when people with zero knowledge or experience of the issue give their opinions (either solicited or unsolicited) on such a sensitive topic. They're literally adding nothing to the debate aside from yet another worthless opinion for someone else to disagree with or get outraged over. The only people who benefit are the ones driving the wedge in the first place.

[Droyd]

I do think it is a pressing issue though, because trans people experience a lot of discrimination, hate etc,

Hopefully the takeaway from my post wasn't the final sentence. It's clearly an important topic and needs debating and resolving in certain areas like competitive sport and personal safety etc. but it's frustrating when people with zero knowledge or experience of the issue give their opinions (either solicited or unsolicited) on such a sensitive topic. They're literally adding nothing to the debate aside from yet another worthless opinion for someone else to disagree with or get outraged over. The only people who benefit are the ones driving the wedge in the first place.

I'm not sure if I misunderstand the point you're making, and apologise if so, but surely there's a good deal of value in calling bigotry out when you see it even if you don't have statistics and references or first-hand experience? To my mind it's exactly the same as calling out sexism and racism rather than letting it slide in terms of what that communicates to the targets and perpetrators of that bigotry, as well as spectators.