[teestub]

To be fair to me (and James), it wasn't a black and white case of a full resin hold. Lots of routes and boulder problems have stabilising resin on them - it's a pretty standard scenario for anybody involved in doing FAs. I've certainly glued plenty of wobbly holds and everyone else I know who does FAs will say the same. It's always a dilemma whether to remove a loose hold or keep it in place.

I think there’s a decent gap between a bit of resin in a flake to stop a hold snapping off (for example) and how this hold turned out from the photos I’ve seen.

As Duma said I’d appreciate such things being included in FA write ups if possible, as it does impact my personal quality classification of problems, even if others are less bothered.

[Duma]

But this seems another level. Gluing back a hold, or stabilising it, is one thing, recreating it or (cobbling the remains together) in plastic is another. Either way it should be noted in a write up.

[Pantontino]

But this seems another level. Gluing back a hold, or stabilising it, is one thing, recreating it or (cobbling the remains together) in plastic is another. Either way it should be noted in a write up.

Perhaps it should have been highlighted in the original news item, but at the time I hadn't actually seen it in the flesh. And anyway, I'm not some commercial news agency, just somebody who documents FAs in my spare time. In the guidebook chapter, which I finished this week, the resin hold was specifically highlighted.

I am definitely not going to be highlighting all resin-stabilised holds in NWB news reports - if you think that is wrong, fine, we'll just have to agree to differ.

[yetix]

Fair enough, does this not invalidate the eliminate a little too? There was something there it turns out, and that something should surely be included in the line now?

I hope James's clean up isn't going to be including removing anything which could potentially be used as a foothold or intermediate (or possibly more) ?

 

[Pantontino]

Fair enough, does this not invalidate the eliminate a little too? There was something there it turns out, and that something should surely be included in the line now?

I hope James's clean up isn't going to be including removing anything which could potentially be used as a foothold or intermediate (or possibly more) ?

 

Between James and Ben it's going to be sorted out for the best/tidiest outcome (they're discussing it right now). Obviously it may affect the grade of the sans resin version that Ben did.

[teestub]

Sounds like Ben is going to get another 4 problems to climb 😂

[Duma]

But this seems another level. Gluing back a hold, or stabilising it, is one thing, recreating it or (cobbling the remains together) in plastic is another. Either way it should be noted in a write up.

Perhaps it should have been highlighted in the original news item, but at the time I hadn't actually seen it in the flesh. And anyway, I'm not some commercial news agency, just somebody who documents FAs in my spare time. In the guidebook chapter, which I finished this week, the resin hold was specifically highlighted.

I am definitely not going to be highlighting all resin-stabilised holds in NWB news reports - if you think that is wrong, fine, we'll just have to agree to differ.

Fair enough, maybe highlighting stabilisation is a bridge too far. But the omission of the recreation of this hold on leviathan in the news reports does seem odd to me. (also 13 repeats on UKC and not one mention of a resin hold)

[Bradders]

Fair enough, maybe highlighting stabilisation is a bridge too far. But the omission of the recreation of this hold on leviathan in the news reports does seem odd to me. (also 13 repeats on UKC and not one mention of a resin hold)

I outlined why I didn't in an earlier post but another point worth mentioning is it wasn't actually that obvious. As in, I didn't even realise until I was told about it. Unless you're fairly switched on to that sort of thing and looked at it closely, you'd easily miss it.

[Adam Lincoln]

But this seems another level. Gluing back a hold, or stabilising it, is one thing, recreating it or (cobbling the remains together) in plastic is another. Either way it should be noted in a write up.

Perhaps it should have been highlighted in the original news item, but at the time I hadn't actually seen it in the flesh. And anyway, I'm not some commercial news agency, just somebody who documents FAs in my spare time. In the guidebook chapter, which I finished this week, the resin hold was specifically highlighted.

I am definitely not going to be highlighting all resin-stabilised holds in NWB news reports - if you think that is wrong, fine, we'll just have to agree to differ.

Fair enough, maybe highlighting stabilisation is a bridge too far. But the omission of the recreation of this hold on leviathan in the news reports does seem odd to me. (also 13 repeats on UKC and not one mention of a resin hold)

I certainly knew it was a resin hold, but the way it was done it didnt bother me as much as some. The look and texture was very in keeping with the rest of the rock and the problem is so good i was happy to ignore it personally.

[remus]

Looks like Orrin Coley has done his big link route proj at Forest Rock in leicestershire. Eagerly awaiting the breakdown, but I suspect it's going to be fairly hard as he knows the place like the back of his hand and it's still taken a few sessions.

[remus]

Forest Rock gets a 9a courtesy of Orrin Coley: The Wizard King.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C_GX2Fvto2I/

[jakaitch]

Very cool! He mentioned specifically the use of chicken heads, anyone know the significance? Is it an ethical thing at forest rock or something?

[remus]

Do you mean carrot bolts? I think normal bolts were placed a couple of times then chopped, so then someone used carrot bolts instead and they seem to have lasted longer.

[jakaitch]

Yeah my bad, carrot heads.
Id not heard of them before his post! Is the hanger removable so they just look less visibly intrusive?

[SA Chris]

Yes, they were common in Australia for a while. The hanger slides over a t shape stub at the top of the bolt, and when the karabiner is clipped it blocks the hole to prevent it from lifting off. I only used them once or twice, and they feel bomber once clipped, but are a bit of  fiddle to place in extremis.

[Stabbsy]

From what I remember (although this might be a story that Aussies tell nervous Brits - along with the ones about hoop snakes and drop bears), they’re called carrots because they’re carrot shaped. You just bash them into the pre-drilled hole until they jam tight and won’t go in any further, no resin or expansion element. I wonder if Orrin has taken the same approach!?

[remus]

From what I remember (although this might be a story that Aussies tell nervous Brits - along with the ones about hoop snakes and drop bears), they’re called carrots because they’re carrot shaped. You just bash them into the pre-drilled hole until they jam tight and won’t go in any further, no resin or expansion element. I wonder if Orrin has taken the same approach!?

Yeah that's what I understand carrot bolts to be. I think they're actually pretty shit and had a habit of pulling out more often than you'd like. I assume the carrots at forest rock are actually just bolts without hangers rather than bash ins.

[duncan]

From what I remember (although this might be a story that Aussies tell nervous Brits - along with the ones about hoop snakes and drop bears), they’re called carrots because they’re carrot shaped. You just bash them into the pre-drilled hole until they jam tight and won’t go in any further, no resin or expansion element. I wonder if Orrin has taken the same approach!?

The original Aussie carrot bolts were regular 5cm or so long machine bolts ground to a tapered square cross-section and were an 'interference fit' like a bespoke piton. They were invented in the 1960s when climbing gear was very hard to obtain in Australia and are relatively visually discrete at a time when bolting was frowned-on by many. I guess this was the reason for their use at Forest Rock. As remus says you could also just place a regular expansion bolt without a hanger which I hope is what has happened here.

A wire nut with the head slid back also works sketchily as a hanger if you don't have a bolt plate.

[SA Chris]

I'd heard that, was glad I had proper plates though. Heard of many instances of the plates being fumbled and dropped by leaders and seconds.

[spidermonkey09]

The rock at arapiles is so hard that hand drilling a hole big enough was v arduous. The less conscientious climbers (Mike law!) used to drill until they got bored, then simply cut the carrot down to suit the size of the hole that had been drilled! Some of the carrots that have been replaced in recent years are little more than stubs. Can't say I mourn their phasing out, although they did add a certain frisson to routes. I always thought they'd have worked well in the slate quarries in the UK.

[Orrincoley]

So a few points to hopefully answer some of your questions!

First of all, no I didn't drill these bolts!

While sketchy you can use a very small wire nut with the head pulled back. I did that a lot in the past here before I got some hangars.

Basically this climb tackles a direct boulder start into the route Top Slice.

The history of the bolts is roughly as follows directly from Robin Richmond who put the bolts in - "The route was an old aid route. The kit that was I'm situ was in a right state so Dave Hughes aided through on the old kit and re-equipped the line with the intention of freeing it."
"A few years later the bolts were chopped, I re-eqipped they got chopped again and i replaced them with the stainless steel coach bolts that are currently still in situ."

[SA Chris]

I always thought they'd have worked well in the slate quarries in the UK.

Surely you just hang a rope down with quickdraws attached to it

[Duncan campbell]

The rock at arapiles is so hard that hand drilling a hole big enough was v arduous. The less conscientious climbers (Mike law!) used to drill until they got bored, then simply cut the carrot down to suit the size of the hole that had been drilled! Some of the carrots that have been replaced in recent years are little more than stubs. Can't say I mourn their phasing out, although they did add a certain frisson to routes. I always thought they'd have worked well in the slate quarries in the UK.

Surprised you haven’t told everyone that the bolts on serpentine are just carrots with fixed hangers (that I knew about when I did it) but you properly found out when one came out on you/your mate recently!!

[Nike Air]

So a few points to hopefully answer some of your questions!

First of all, no I didn't drill these bolts!

While sketchy you can use a very small wire nut with the head pulled back. I did that a lot in the past here before I got some hangars.

Basically this climb tackles a direct boulder start into the route Top Slice.

The history of the bolts is roughly as follows directly from Robin Richmond who put the bolts in - "The route was an old aid route. The kit that was I'm situ was in a right state so Dave Hughes aided through on the old kit and re-equipped the line with the intention of freeing it."
"A few years later the bolts were chopped, I re-eqipped they got chopped again and i replaced them with the stainless steel coach bolts that are currently still in situ."

How come the previous bolts were chopped?

[spidermonkey09]

Surprised you haven’t told everyone that the bolts on serpentine are just carrots with fixed hangers (that I knew about when I did it) but you properly found out when one came out on you/your mate recently!!

I was belaying fortunately! Ironically it wasn't the carrots which came out, but the replacements, which are some weird kind of expansion bolt  with a really short thread which basically just unscrews itself. The carrots were probably bomber by comparison...