Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard. It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?
However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?
Maybe, although the point I was trying to make is that there are possibly better ways to work out why you will fail to climb 8a than doing JWI's tests.However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?
It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a 7b|+ instead and see if you can do it?
The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.
*JWI's test 1 is the clearest indication of this to me. I'd place myself in the "quick 8c" area, but the idea of doing 10 laps of 7c on the minute horrifies me - if we are talking about a 30 move 7c indoors. Outdoors it ranges from plain impossible to something that wouldn't make me break a sweat, depending on the 7c.
Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking. Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries. Translate for other levels. 8c climbers (quick redpoint) should have the levels 7c/8a/8b/8APersonally I am disproportionally strong on test 3, spot on on test 1 and 2 and substandard on test 4.
Firstly, thanks all for the replies, really appreciated and lots to consider It seems I might have got overly excited about The Self-Coached Climber benchmarks i.e. as jwi points out https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649661.html#msg649661, when you actually look at the detail it is hazy in parts (how many moves, amount of rest and so on) and these things matter! It seems too however that people question the usefulness of the Lattice Training approach: how much can actually be extrapolated from something so specific.I really like this https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649667.html#msg649667 from jwi. I like the straightforwardness and coherence (or at least it seems to correspond to my experience). But, and this maybe goes back to my original point, I'd be confident of achieving all the benchmarks (perhaps with the exception of the 2nd test: 7b x 6 with 8 min rest between laps) but I under-perform on 8a (and redpointing one in 5 tries currently seems well beyond me).As Stu points out though https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649727.html#msg649727 jwi's suggested benchmarks may have snags too.jwi: You mention a survey you did and a friend's use of the benchmarks in clinics; how robust are the tests?I don't really know where to go with this. I could just try something and see what happens, be that testing myself against suggested benchmarks or perhaps going with my feel for what would be worthwhile (fingerboarding, campussing and something anaerobic)? But I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless
How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).
Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,Dunc
edit: I was going to pm you privately but just noticed Duncan's post.. he's said it spot on. I've always thought on routes you lack the killer instinct to keep fighting and get it done, instead too often giving in if things don't go smoothly. Searching out someone/some resource for training in how to have more of a battling mentality might be useful. Perhaps not going full Ben Cossey, but a little bit. You're fit enough, strong enough and technically good enough to *onsight* 8a with not much extra physical conditioning, if you wanted it enough, let alone rp in 5 goes. Said with best intent
I don't really know where to go with this. [...] I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless
If you are well rounded, there’s a lot to be said for a structured but balanced approach.
Quote from: duncan on November 29, 2021, 12:15:17 pmThe power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall. Unsolicited feedback belowPerhaps the "(Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance)" benchmark would capture it, but one thing I've noticed from your sessions on Road Rage is that you hit a bit of a wall where you stop being able to have good working goes relatively quickly. I wonder if working on being able to do more only-just-submaximal boulders in a session would allow you to have more goes in a day, learn a bit more about the movement, and be more likely to succeed as a result.
What are your goals?What are your strengths and weaknesses? Would focusing on technique or mental game be more beneficial?
Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily
Quote from: jwi on November 30, 2021, 09:53:47 am Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)