[Duma]

Tom Herbert just linked to this post of his from a while back:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BM6Q85DBlZl/?igshid=2cfevrjc815v
Some interesting comments too.

As I read it the 10 min from the paper is total time under load? Whereas the yt vid is doing a 10 min session that is actually <2 min under load.

[RobK]

As I read it the 10 min from the paper is total time under load? Whereas the yt vid is doing a 10 min session that is actually <2 min under load.

Yeah, he admits as much in his follow up comment. I guess the advantage of what he did is it requires virtually no time and limits the amount of fatigue for other sessions. I imagine there is loads of playing around you could do with the protocol.

[Bradders]

There was something similar advocated by Training Beta a while ago: https://www.trainingbeta.com/evening-sends-5-minute-fingers/

There are a couple of bits of this that make sense, for example I always feel my fingers are less tweaky when I'm consistently fingerboarding, and especially for beginners I think there's a lot to be said for doing higher volumes of work at low intensities.

But the actual programme isn't far off what I normally do in the early part of my warm up for a FB or board session at home... and I've not had 3000% gains sadly.

Also, as has been pointed out, the mention of the adaptation switching off after 10 minutes is contradicted by the session only containing 100 seconds or so of time under tension, leaving 500 still to play with.

And hang on (no pun intended), 4 months earlier he could hang the BM 2k low rung for 7 seconds, but in the video he claims to barely be able to hang it at all? Then at the end results he can hang it for 7 seconds again...so he's made no gains whatsoever from 4/6 months ago.

Bullshit.

Short summary I think is; low intensity training is a good thing to include in your overall approach to training, for general health of the structures involved. But it's not some magic bullet, and it's misleading to paint it as such.

[Duma]

Be interesting to find out if it matters to its effectiveness, as the thing that really make it appealing to me is that it's realistic to do before work (intensity is low enough to require v little warm up, and total time required is so little). To be frank, there's zero chance of me getting up 30-40min earlier to do a more conventional fb session first thing, so this sort of protocol is not really sacrificing any other training options.

[RobK]

And hang on (no pun intended), 4 months earlier he could hang the BM 2k low rung for 7 seconds, but in the video he claims to barely be able to hang it at all? Then at the end results he can hang it for 7 seconds again...so he's made no gains whatsoever from 4/6 months ago.

He sort of answers this in his follow up comment too...

Q: So in your benchmarking video 4 months ago you were able to hand the BM 20mm edge 1 handed for 7s. I was wondering what happened between then and the start of January and if your improvements could be more attributed to re-recuitment rather than actual improvements in strength?
A: I would’ve included this, but my strength there is quite incomparable to my current state. I’d been bulking and trying to get really strong, I weighed like 4kg more than I do now. It had both upsides and downsides to it! (it was also shot  ~ 6 months ago)
The result I got in January better reflect how I most often perform on a hangboard. Re-recruitment could most definitely play a big part in it, but since I broke every record I’ve had before I’ll at least give some credit to the new program.

But in doing so makes it even more confusing. So he could hang for 7 seconds AND he weighed 4kg more?

Who knows. To me it seems like a relatively low risk strategy that is easy to experiment with so I'm going to give it a go once or twice a day.

[AMorris]

I find this all a bit unlikely. The effort levels he's putting into hangboarding (80% of his bodyweight) are barely moving the needle. I'm sure I've seen this guy one arming campus rungs etc. He's able to hang massive weight off his body in other videos of his. He's campused Never Ending Story stand etc. He's not weak. Hanging with his feet on the ground seems like nothing more than rehab for injury.

This is not entirely accurate. If you watch his and Erik's videos (which I have enjoyed for years now), you will see that although he is extremely strong on compression, pinches, and generally burly climbing, his hangboarding results one arming an edge have always lagged behind significantly. For the grade he climbs, he has relatively weak fingers, which is something he readily admits.

Personally I can see how this could help, since I have seen myself benefit a lot from what I suspect is effectively the same process. I am a great believer of this for core too.

[Anti]

I find this all a bit unlikely. The effort levels he's putting into hangboarding (80% of his bodyweight) are barely moving the needle. I'm sure I've seen this guy one arming campus rungs etc. He's able to hang massive weight off his body in other videos of his. He's campused Never Ending Story stand etc. He's not weak. Hanging with his feet on the ground seems like nothing more than rehab for injury.

This is not entirely accurate. If you watch his and Erik's videos (which I have enjoyed for years now), you will see that although he is extremely strong on compression, pinches, and generally burly climbing, his hangboarding results one arming an edge have always lagged behind significantly. For the grade he climbs, he has relatively weak fingers, which is something he readily admits.

Personally I can see how this could help, since I have seen myself benefit a lot from what I suspect is effectively the same process. I am a great believer of this for core too.

200% BW on a 20mm edge, one arming the BM2k middle slot for 7s pre this video. Depending on how you interpret it he's either 82KG or 86KG. I'd say those are pretty strong fingers, especially considering it's his weakness.

[MischaHY]

I don't believe there is any evidence base to suggest that a) 30 days is a long enough window for anything more than minimal strength gains in tendon/ligament structures and b) that loading to such a small percentage of max would stimulate any supercompensation.

In the time frame where he made the gains he also did a bunch of hard bouldering and apparently dropped some weight. This is more than enough on its own to get the kind of recruitment gains he shows IMO. I've gone through long periods (months) of never touching a fingerboard and just bouldering, then come back and do a one-arm PB. There's a reason that one-arm strength is a reasonable predictor of boulder grade!

My experience is that consistent time put into a solid, periodised combination of max hangs, repeaters and grip specialisation depending on goals is the most effective method of improving finger strength.

[spidermonkey09]

I am a great believer of this for core too.

Could you expand?

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't believe there is any evidence base to suggest that a) 30 days is a long enough window for anything more than minimal strength gains in tendon/ligament structures and b) that loading to such a small percentage of max would stimulate any supercompensation.

In the time frame where he made the gains he also did a bunch of hard bouldering and apparently dropped some weight. This is more than enough on its own to get the kind of recruitment gains he shows IMO. I've gone through long periods (months) of never touching a fingerboard and just bouldering, then come back and do a one-arm PB. There's a reason that one-arm strength is a reasonable predictor of boulder grade!

My experience is that consistent time put into a solid, periodised combination of max hangs, repeaters and grip specialisation depending on goals is the most effective method of improving finger strength.

So, this?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLHdNZSjrPs/?igshid=uq6q48vkh9qy

[Scouse D]

I have just done my second set. I have just booked a gite in font. Off to do the Island.

[nai]

I have just done my second set. I have just booked a gite in font. Off to do the Island.

Don't forget your reading material

[duncan]

This protocol is basically the same me nipping down to the Broomgrove Road wall for 15 min. between lectures c.1980. It helped a bit on peak lime E3/4s. Otherwise, what Misha said: TINSTAAFL.

[T_B]

Ha. You’ve forgotten how hard you have to bone those Broomgrove edges Duncan. This protocol is a lot easier.

[AMorris]

I find this all a bit unlikely. The effort levels he's putting into hangboarding (80% of his bodyweight) are barely moving the needle. I'm sure I've seen this guy one arming campus rungs etc. He's able to hang massive weight off his body in other videos of his. He's campused Never Ending Story stand etc. He's not weak. Hanging with his feet on the ground seems like nothing more than rehab for injury.

This is not entirely accurate. If you watch his and Erik's videos (which I have enjoyed for years now), you will see that although he is extremely strong on compression, pinches, and generally burly climbing, his hangboarding results one arming an edge have always lagged behind significantly. For the grade he climbs, he has relatively weak fingers, which is something he readily admits.

Personally I can see how this could help, since I have seen myself benefit a lot from what I suspect is effectively the same process. I am a great believer of this for core too.

200% BW on a 20mm edge, one arming the BM2k middle slot for 7s pre this video. Depending on how you interpret it he's either 82KG or 86KG. I'd say those are pretty strong fingers, especially considering it's his weakness.

Given his level, 7s one arm on the BM slot is not particularly impressive. I would expect a climber that consistently climbs 8B, has flashed 8A+, and trains a lot, to throw down numbers higher than that.

[teestub]

Given his level, 7s one arm on the BM slot is not particularly impressive. I would expect a climber that consistently climbs 8B, has flashed 8A+, and trains a lot, to throw down numbers higher than that.

I’d agree with you for lighter climbers but at 86kg I’d say that’s pretty impressive.

[AMorris]

I am a great believer of this for core too.

Could you expand?

Sure. Keep in mind this is just what I have found works for me, and a couple of people I have suggested it to. Core seems to be a battle of attrition, so I have found doing very consistent but fairly low intensity exercises (e.g. a few sets of rollouts every night) has lead to far better improvement than drilling myself on a couple of hard core sessions a week. I mix it up a lot, but generally if I am focussing on core for a block I will throw in 5 sets of 10 rollouts every night rather than a couple of lever sessions a week.

It's worth noting that, for me, my abdominals are usually the groups that need work in high intensity tensiony positions (e.g. a front lever), rather than my lats. This is my hypothesis on why this approach works for me.

[AMorris]

Given his level, 7s one arm on the BM slot is not particularly impressive. I would expect a climber that consistently climbs 8B, has flashed 8A+, and trains a lot, to throw down numbers higher than that.

I’d agree with you for lighter climbers but at 86kg I’d say that’s pretty impressive.

According to his 9c test video, he is 76kg, not 86kg.

[teestub]

Ah cool, was just quoting from upthread

[User deactivated.]

It's worth noting that, for me, my abdominals are usually the groups that need work in high intensity tensiony positions (e.g. a front lever), rather than my lats. This is my hypothesis on why this approach works for me.

I find this to be almost impossible as the abdominal demands on a front lever are miniscule in comparison to that of the lats. For example, if you can hold a good hollowbody position laying on the floor this is comparable to the abdominal demands in a front lever. Do you mean that your hips are sagging in the movement? That is commonly mistaken as the core being weak but is 99% due to the lats and other back muscles not being able to pull you level, and sagging reduces the leverage. Apologies if i'm wrong and you really are failing levers due to ab weakness but this would be extraordinarily rare.

Edit: a good test is use a strong resistance band to support under your lower back (not at the feet), and see if you can hold a good lever. This reduces the demands on the back muscles, but not on the abs.

[Anti]

Ah my bad with the weight. He said in a benchmark video he was 82kg. His weight moves a lot, he said he was 4kg heavier at the start of this one too.

[AMorris]

It's worth noting that, for me, my abdominals are usually the groups that need work in high intensity tensiony positions (e.g. a front lever), rather than my lats. This is my hypothesis on why this approach works for me.

I find this to be almost impossible as the abdominal demands on a front lever are miniscule in comparison to that of the lats. For example, if you can hold a good hollowbody position laying on the floor this is comparable to the abdominal demands in a front lever. Do you mean that your hips are sagging in the movement? That is commonly mistaken as the core being weak but is 99% due to the lats and other back muscles not being able to pull you level, and sagging reduces the leverage. Apologies if i'm wrong and you really are failing levers due to ab weakness but this would be extraordinarily rare.

Edit: a good test is use a strong resistance band to support under your lower back (not at the feet), and see if you can hold a good lever. This reduces the demands on the back muscles, but not on the abs.

Yeah indeed, I am aware of the role the lats play in generating the movement. I have found that my lats are not the limiting factor though, and whether I can hold the position generally correlates well with how 'sturdy' I feel on the ab roller. It is probably more than just the abs that I am working there. This is why I made it clear that n=1, and what works for me may not work for everyone else.

[jwi]

but....  the ab roller is mostly lats also 🤷🏼‍♂️🤔

[AMorris]

but....  the ab roller is mostly lats also 🤷🏼‍♂️🤔

I have not found that at all. If you rotate your shoulders at the bottom of the movement to bring yourself back to the top I can see how that would be lats, but I consider that 'cheating'. If you pull your abs in and generate the movement by squeezing that is almost entirely abs.

[teestub]

I thought with ab roller you kept everything else locked and rotated around your shoulder (like a rings prone I)? Does squeezing your abs to generate the movement involve arching your back?