[Oldmanmatt]

Incidentally, our training room is entirely unheated and the windows at either end are open almost all year round. The bouldering room is heated to 14⁰C during the winter ( mainly because we were “raided” by HSE in our second year and given a written instruction that if we had staff manning that room, we had to maintain a minimum of 14⁰C, so not sure how other places cope).
We still got a 1* review this winter, because it was “entirely unheated”...
we’ve never had a tops on rule and only once had a complaint. It was an online review and after we responded, the poster both removed his review and I was banned from all our social media accounts for two years.
I’m only allowed to post under supervision now. In my defence, he was also quite abusive about the “child” who served him in reception, who was in fact a 22 year old woman, who just happened to be 4’8”...

[Ged]

And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.

God damn right, if any wall I went to banned tops off I wouldn't go again on principle.

Also, and perhaps this just shows what a knob I am, but I'm not really bothered about whether climbing is diverse or not. People can climb or not climb as they wish.. anyone care to convince me why I should care more? Plus, if people feel put off by tops off then what on earth will happen to them when they go to the crag; or for that matter when they go to a beach or swimming pool?

IMO, all summed up best by Yan many years ago with something along the lines of... "it's a climbing wall, not a golf course"

I can't be arsed to have an argument with you about diversity, other than to say that if the lack of diversity is down to people being intimidated/made to feel uncomfortable by sweaty top less men, then that's a bit selfish on the part of the sweaty topless men.

but here's another way of looking at it. The wall I mainly use is the hangar in Plymouth. It's quite new, and a very good wall. It wouldn't be a viable business without appealing to the mass market. I.e. People who will come and use it as an alternative to the gym but have no interest in rock climbing. I can easily see how, when showing round a bunch of potential new customers, the sight of a bunch of sweaty blokes with their tits out on the comp wall might not be good for business. Not good business = no good training facilities being invested in, and less frequent and good route setting. I'm alright with keeping my top on if it means I've got a good wall. Maybe it's different in Sheffield where climbing is a lot more mainstream.

[Ged]

P. S. I also don't buy the "but in a swimming pool" argument. Our social norms are varied and complex, but you'd be a bit wigged out if your GP did a consultation in speedos. Different situations her ally have different norms.

[SamT]

Different situations her ally have different norms.

Yep, and I'd argue that tops off (and skimpy bra tops) on a hot day down the climbing wall is a social norm.

If I wasn't such a perv, I'd be at the front desk complaining about the likes of Puch posing and flaunting her way round in next to nothing lycra.

[teestub]

Isn’t the social norms thing part of the point though? It has certainly been the norm for people to climb taps aff at the wall in hotter weather since I started climbing in 2000ish, and that had continued since, it’s not new. As such should people feel pressure to change their ‘normal’ behaviour in a given environment for the potential fear of offending some people?

Edit: beaten to it by SamT!

[JamieG]

I'm not a particular fan of tops off at the wall, since I do think it potentially intimidates new climbers. Especially if we are interested in increasing diversity within climbing.

I also don't like the 'if you don't like, climb somewhere else' argument. That is not a million miles away from the far right argument of 'love it or leave it'. Maybe, you think I am over-egging it, but if you are making someone feel really uncomfortable by climbing topless and you attitude is that is 'well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off' then you are lacking a little in empathy.

I'm not saying you immediately need to put a top on but perhaps we should reflect on our behaviours as climbers and try to come to a common ground so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love.

[mr chaz]

… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love

Can't get on board with this.

Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.

[JamieG]

… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love

Can't get on board with this.

Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.

I'm interested why? I don't think you have right to not be offended in every situation. This is really important in art, music etc making sure it keeps challenging us.  But why not make small changes to your climbing behaviour, if that helps other people?

[abarro81]

I also don't like the 'if you don't like, climb somewhere else' argument. That is not a million miles away from the far right argument of 'love it or leave it'. Maybe, you think I am over-egging it, but if you are making someone feel really uncomfortable by climbing topless and you attitude is that is 'well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off' then you are lacking a little in empathy.

I'm not saying you immediately need to put a top on but perhaps we should reflect on our behaviours as climbers and try to come to a common ground so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love.

The "if you don't like it then leave" was actually from Ged aimed at the tops-off crew.

I think my attitude is less "well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off" and more "get over whatever your issue is, it's just a freakin' torso". Maybe they're the same. p.s. I almost certainly do lack empathy.  Your logic could also easily be extended to the crag... and if encouraging diversity meant not getting tops off at the crag I feel like I would intuitively prefer the less rules-based scene even if it's less diverse. If I wanted a scene where going topless wasn't ok I'd have joined the golf club.

[JamieG]

Fair enough. But I think increasing diversity is always a good thing. I went to a talk about employment diversity and it should that companies with a more diverse employee base actually are more profitable. This could have analogies for climbing. A more diverse set of climbers, may mean a 'richer' and more interesting climbing culture too. Which I would be all for.

[abarro81]

I went to a talk about employment diversity and it should that companies with a more diverse employee base actually are more profitable.

I don't doubt it, but to my mind the climbing analogy is that a more diverse climber base means more good climbers... and I don't really care whether there are 2 people in the world climbing 9b+ or 10 of them... nor do I care that much whether it's Brits climbing hard or not - it makes  watching the world cup more interesting but I'd certainly not trade an impact on my days out at the crag for it.

A more diverse set of climbers, may mean a 'richer' and more interesting climbing culture too.

That may be true.. but if it's a culture in which going tops off or down to a sport bra is considered off limits then I suspect I'd rather stick with the current one... maybe I'm more of a conservative that I thought.

[mr chaz]

… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love

Can't get on board with this.

Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.

I'm interested why? I don't think you have right to not be offended in every situation. This is really important in art, music etc making sure it keeps challenging us.  But why not make small changes to your climbing behaviour, if that helps other people?

I don't feel the need to adjust my behaviour to make new climbers more comfortable because its not in my interest to increase participation or diversity in the use of indoor climbing walls.

[Nutty]

I'm probably being thick or culturally ignorant (or both), but can someone spell out why going tops off is going to prevent/inhibit diversity in climbing? I'd like to know the rationale.

[Nutty]

On unacceptable wall behaviours: thinking the mats under the circuit walls are the best place to do stretching/planks/yoga. Standing around having a chat in the fall zone of the steep board when someone's trying to use it. Constantly forgetting your card so they have to look you up on the system every time you go causing queues out the door at reception.

Couldn't care less about people being tops off, I don't tend to go tops off myself unless it's really hot (might do this week though). Equally, I don't mind if someone flashes a problem I'm struggling on - I'm already aware that I'm a shit climber in the scheme of things and the beta might be useful.

[Will Hunt]

A friend is at Lord's today watching England get demolished. Apparently the Marylebone Cricket Club have issued a statement that members do not have to wear jackets in the pavilion today and tomorrow. Truly the end of days.

[JamieG]

I would argue it absolutely is in everyone’s interest to increase diversity in all almost situations. Unless you are comfortable with the slow and dangerous slide to the right wing we are seeing across most western cultures.

I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.

[spidermonkey09]

A friend is at Lord's today watching England get demolished. Apparently the Marylebone Cricket Club have issued a statement that members do not have to wear jackets in the pavilion today and tomorrow. Truly the end of days.

There had to be a price for the world cup win!

[abarro81]

I would argue it absolutely is in everyone’s interest to increase diversity in all almost situations. Unless you are comfortable with the slow and dangerous slide to the right wing we are seeing across most western cultures.

I think this is interesting... so your view is that more diversity leads to less right-wing-ism? Is that borne out in reality (genuine question)?

I guess I can buy the argument that once you have a diverse population it's good for hobbies/activities to be diverse to avoid segregation which - I presume based on no evidence - is more likely to lead to tensions...

I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable.

But this is true at the crag or at a park too... why stop at the wall? Should I have not spent all that time slacklining and playing frizbee topless on the downs in Bristol when I was a teenager? Should I be avoiding going tops off down the cornice?

[Will Hunt]

I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.

Would it be totally gammon of me to take your example and ask "what about surfing/going to the beach or any other activity where people might be topless?"

I'm all for increasing diversity but if that involves fundamentally changing the activity to suit the needs of the most conservative (religiously or otherwise) members who constitute a small proportion, then is that the right thing to do? Western cultures tend to be quite comfortable with male torsos. If I went to a bouldering wall in Saudi, or Iran, or Tel Aviv, or Singapore, or anywhere more socially conservative I wouldn't expect it to be OK to climb shirtless. But when in Rome...


Not my best written or thought out post. If this is still interesting later I'll try and put more thought into a reply. I think Jamie's post has a number of logical problems and assumptions though - not least that there may be religiously conservative women who are walking into secular buildings and having to leave because of a few male nipples. I have no idea how prevalent such attitudes may be but it does seem a bit Daily Mail to presume that that is how muslim women women are.

[seankenny]

I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.

I took a couple of female Muslim friends (who both wear headscarves) to the wall and they seemed totally unfazed by its fairly flesh-on-display nature. I mean, they live in modern Britain, go out, they know that people wear sports bras and vests etc, and as long as they can still cover up and feel welcome, it's all good - at least that's my interpretation.

I can see however how a prepubescent girl might find a lot of tops off blokes intimidating, but I'm not sure if that's more the bunch of blokes factor.

[Oldmanmatt]

Seriously, it sounds like some of you have really got your knockers in a twist about the shirts off thing.

It’s up to the wall management. They’re going to take the decision that best represents their clientele/ethos and you are free to vote on that decision with your feet.

And really? No evidence that segregation causes tensions? I’m assuming that wasn’t meant to sound the way it does. Anyone who thinks they “own” climbing or it’s adjacent other activities or has a greater right to access those activities than others, is a straight up twat. Or are we to write “minimum criteria and entrance standards” for people wishing to participate? Which attributes should we focus on? Age? Skin tone? Gender? Ability?
Oo! Oo! I know!

Social Class!

Maybe that’s not what some of the above posters were implying or trying to imply and there’s a huge grey area about antisocial behaviour and what should be allowable indoors or out.

But, we have fairly established ideas of what is “acceptable” behaviour and what constitutes “antisocial” both in our chosen niche and society at large and none of them include restricting diversity or access or include “segregation” because all of those constitute bigotry and have synonyms ending in -ism.

So, are we just defining “diversity” and “accessibility” differently; or are you guys going to post up your requirements for people to be allowed to partake in “your” hobby? 

[Alex-the-Alex]

Rome maybe but you'd be kicked out and fined from Venice Will 

I can see the argument that a large group of topless testostertorsos might put off some, but that's the more the group effect. The topless part seems a minor add on to that rather than the main put off. Most of the time the hairyback bloke trying hard in the corner will barely be noticed.

Personally any kind of dress code worries me more. That's def veering towards a climbing David Lloyd's  . Isnt it a good thing that walls are breaking down body taboos?

[Offwidth]

I find this so hard to believe - it goes completely against common sense that wearing an extra layer (essentially a barrier) could increase how fast your sweat evaporates. I even spent the last fifteen minutes on google scholar but couldn't find anything remotely informative. Care to link to anything?

Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR


Some top end PCM stuff:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26

Plus an example  of manufacturebabble:

https://arcticcool.com/instant-cooling/cooling-shirts-work/

The arguments I've heard are that the dripping fraction of sweat doesn't cool the body (and increases water and salt loss through over-sweating, impacting performance)   but distributed contained sweat on well designed clothing all does and possibly more efficiently so. It's clearly not as simple as Fiend says and the Science is nothing like the infamous and idiotic climbing chalk utility papers (largely I guess as its a big deal, as competitions in most sports  require tops in hot weather, so there is a big incentive to investigate the best top designs you can, with the spin off of selling what the competitors wear to produce money from auto wad status/ hero worship).

[abarro81]

It’s up to the wall management. They’re going to take the decision that best represents their clientele/ethos and you are free to vote on that decision with your feet.

Yes, everyone has agreed with the above.

No evidence that segregation causes tensions? I’m assuming that wasn’t meant to sound the way it does.

What I meant was that it's my presumption, but I've don precisely nothing to investigate it apart from listening to radio 4 and reading the guardian. My question was whether the presumption that increased diversity leads to reduced support for the far right is valid... because again, I've never really tried to work out if that is/sin't the case.

But, we have fairly established ideas of what is “acceptable” behaviour and what constitutes “antisocial” both in our chosen niche and society at large

Clearly we don't quite, or we wouldn't be split on the subject of whether tops off is antisocial or a perfectly fine part of climbing culture.

So, are we just defining “diversity” and “accessibility” differently; or are you guys going to post up your requirements for people to be allowed to partake in “your” hobby? 

I'm not really sure what the point of your whole post is? You seem to be arguing against an imaginary poster espousing things that no-one on here has... you in a bad mood?

[abarro81]

In fact, I just reread your post and I'm not even entirely sure which side you're attacking?