[r-man]

Doesn't Bransby (in)famously drag everything? Operating at a pretty high level, so clearly dragging isn't a dead end technique.

I usually drag or open hand small holds, unless they really force me to crimp, which isn't very often. As a result I don't think my fingers have built up the same strength in the crimp position, so it normally feels like a weaker option.

I had a go on the micros down the wall last year, and they were ok to drag, if a bit gnarly on the skin. If I'd tried crimping I think I'd have struggled.

At the other end of the scale, I've seen die hard crimpers bone down in full crimp mode on giant slopers. Sickening.

[Doylo]

Bransby’s a freak.

[moose]

Bransby’s a freak.

According to my advanced mathematical model, running on a super-computer powered by gin and bullshit, Bransby would be climbing 9c if he crimped. 

[spidermonkey09]

Bransby’s a freak.

Everything of his I've ever tried on grit, regardless of grade, has resulted in a shutdown. Magician. Be interested to review your footage of him on The Beast to see if hes crimping anything!

[Doylo]

Seem to remember a lot of dragging on that.

[JohnM]

I have found that my preferred grip style has changed dramatically over the years. When I first started I was really weak open handed and dragging pockets. I was forced to crimp everything. However, this resulted in getting injuries from crimping and from being open handed and dragging pockets. Back then there seemed to be a lot of information about training open handed and then also the back two (Beastmaker). Therefore, I trained this loads which really helped me stop getting injured (particularly strengthening the back 2) and I started dragging almost everything!

More recently a lot of fingerboard training seems to focus on the half crimp (i.e. being actively engaged on the hold) e.g. that Chris Webb Parsons routine and the Lattice guys as well. For the past couple of years I have focused on that and now where necessary I seem to half crimp a lot more even on holds where before I would have had to rely on the crimp. I might be imagining it but getting though hard sequences with this this grip style on sport routes seems to induce less pump than crimping.

Having said all that I still think it is beneficial to include some controlled crimping in your fingerboard routine both with and without the pinky.

[Danny]

I'm 100% a natural crimper. Because of this (and received wisdom on the half crimp) I've totally avoided training crimps. I am incredibly poor on pockets in general: I've finally gotten to hanging body weight on my middle two in 20 mm pockets (as I think I mentioned elsewhere, my front two seem to be far stronger). For me the contact strength benefits of half crimping seem to translate to board style problems, rather than vert style take a hold in full control and crush it. I think in the UK even a lot of the steep problems are of the latter style.   

I've noticed a few natural draggers, and FWIW, they all seem to have short and chisel-like fingers. I on the other hand am a classic ectomorph, with long skinny fingers. I think there's probably some biomechanical basis for favouring one or the other, even if training can change your relative strengths on grip types. I've thrown a lot at dragging, half crimps and pockets training-wise in the last 6 months. There are maybe 3 pockets in all of Cornwall, so probably time to start some cautious crimpy training.

[Bradders]

Alright Bradders lets give this a go. I’m going to try to link to a couple of pictures of two climbers on the same hold on a Peak Lime mega classic 7C+. One is holding the crimp in a full crimp, the other is holding it “open”.

https://imgur.com/gallery/iTQFRa2

To be honest I'm a little more interested in how you hold your fingers whilst on a fingerboard, but that's still a really interesting comparison.

The reason I'm specifically interested in the fingerboard position is that when I use a fully open grip (I.e. the classic drag), on either of the two rungs on the BM2k, I literally cannot get my pinky anywhere near the hold.

I've noticed a few natural draggers, and FWIW, they all seem to have short and chisel-like fingers. I on the other hand am a classic ectomorph, with long skinny fingers. I think there's probably some biomechanical basis for favouring one or the other

I think this is a really important point; I likewise have very long skinny fingers and am therefore seemingly predisposed to the crimp or half crimp, almost more as a way of getting all four fingers on to the hold than as a stronger grip.

If all of your fingers are roughly equal lengths and you can easily get your pinky on in a drag then more power too you.

Try to actively hang the hold.

However, I think this is really important too. It strikes me that dragging is a very passive way to use a hold, and in a sense you're almost just smushing your skin onto the hold and then using the rest of your body to engage it (for example via compression or body positioning). A half or full crimp, by contrast, is far more active way yo engage a hold, and I would think forces you to generate more force via your forearm muscles and finger ligaments/tendons. This presumably is also why the variations of the crimp are more injurious, but also I would argue why they're stronger grip types where you're much more able to lock down a hold.

Personally I think building up a careful controlled base of this kind of force must be a good thing, and the fingerboard is easily the best place to do that.

[Murph]

To be honest I'm a little more interested in how you hold your fingers whilst on a fingerboard, but that's still a really interesting comparison.

The reason I'm specifically interested in the fingerboard position is that when I use a fully open grip (I.e. the classic drag), on either of the two rungs on the BM2k, I literally cannot get my pinky anywhere near the hold.

Hi Bradders, I was going to get someone to take pictures of me fingerboarding but Dave MacLeod already put together a great video on the dark art. He shows three grip types, starting from 6:55.


Pictures of the hangs and what DM calls them - "four fingers open", "half crimp" and "full open hand or three finger drag as some people call it". I usually use four fingers open and having just checked, it looks much like the picture here. And according to DM, yeah you shouldn't be getting your pinky involved in a fully open hang. But two of the hangs he demonstrates have "open" in the name.
https://imgur.com/gallery/TFyOiql

[slab_happy]

The reason I'm specifically interested in the fingerboard position is that when I use a fully open grip (I.e. the classic drag), on either of the two rungs on the BM2k, I literally cannot get my pinky anywhere near the hold.

I've noticed a few natural draggers, and FWIW, they all seem to have short and chisel-like fingers. I on the other hand am a classic ectomorph, with long skinny fingers. I think there's probably some biomechanical basis for favouring one or the other

I think this is a really important point; I likewise have very long skinny fingers and am therefore seemingly predisposed to the crimp or half crimp, almost more as a way of getting all four fingers on to the hold than as a stronger grip.

If all of your fingers are roughly equal lengths and you can easily get your pinky on in a drag then more power too you.

This is interesting to me. I don't know whether my fingers would count as "long", but yeah, certainly in a drag my little finger's not on the hold.

However, I tended from early on to open-hand things, maybe partly because of hearing early on that it was safer to get strong open-handed than try to crimp everything.

In the last few years, I've had some ongoing tweaks in both ring fingers, and my current theory is that it's because when I do crimp, the little finger still tends to drop or not be involved, and as a result the ring finger skews sideways slightly and bad things happen in the joint.

Thus, currently trying to build up a solid half-crimp and work on convincing my little finger to pull its weight.

I'm even playing with little-finger hands picking up weight with the Problemsolver Nano, not because I expect to be doing any pinky monos any time soon but just to convince myself that I can actually exert some force through that finger.

[Bradders]

Pictures of the hangs and what DM calls them - "four fingers open", "half crimp" and "full open hand or three finger drag as some people call it". I usually use four fingers open and having just checked, it looks much like the picture here. And according to DM, yeah you shouldn't be getting your pinky involved in a fully open hang. But two of the hangs he demonstrates have "open" in the name.
https://imgur.com/gallery/TFyOiql

That clears things up a fair bit, cheers.

Although it's interesting that the four finger open grip is literally physically impossible for me! My pinky is so much shorter than my other fingers that they're forced into a half crimp in order to get the pinky on 

In the last few years, I've had some ongoing tweaks in both ring fingers, and my current theory is that it's because when I do crimp, the little finger still tends to drop or not be involved, and as a result the ring finger skews sideways slightly and bad things happen in the joint.

I think that's a solid theory. I noticed last year that the natural way my fingers settle in a crimp or half crimp (particularly the former) is for the middle finger to rotate away from the index, creating a gap. This was, I think, causing a recurring injury in my middle finger PIP joints, which I resolved by simply buddy taping my index and middle fingers together whilst training.

[finbarrr]

what to call this though?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpkTvc6HBMX/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

[Nibile]

Hmmm...
 
A front lever on the BM 45 slopers?

[SA Chris]

I have found that my preferred grip style has changed dramatically over the years. When I first started I was really weak open handed and dragging pockets. I was forced to crimp everything. However, this resulted in getting injuries from crimping and from being open handed and dragging pockets. Back then there seemed to be a lot of information about training open handed and then also the back two (Beastmaker). Therefore, I trained this loads which really helped me stop getting injured (particularly strengthening the back 2) and I started dragging almost everything!

Snap. (as in likewise, not the sound my pulleys make).

[finbarrr]

Hmmm...
 
A front lever on the BM 45 slopers?

the BM 45 open crimpers?

[Danny]

what to call this though?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpkTvc6HBMX/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Whatever you call it, I think most training-interested folk would be pretty happy to be able to do it.

[Nibile]

I would for sure, even though I take every feat on the BM 45 slopes with a handful of salt.
I personally experienced very big differences even on my own BM from day to day, going from not hanging to doing 12" hangs, let alone from BM to BM.
I would prefer a lot more to do it on pinky monos.

[36chambers]

what to call this though?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpkTvc6HBMX/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Whatever you call it, I think most training-interested folk would be pretty happy to be able to do it.

His arms are bent, which makes things significantly easier. Back around Megos.

[Nibile]

what to call this though?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpkTvc6HBMX/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Whatever you call it, I think most training-interested folk would be pretty happy to be able to do it.

His arms are bent, which makes things significantly easier. Back around Megos.

This. Is. UKB.
Land of the dire. Land of the primitive. Land of the offensive.
No carrots here. Only sticks.

Indeed!!!