[User deactivated.]

I feel like when I lose weight I also lose strength/power at about the same rate. Obviously this means that all that has been achieved is hunger and misery.

For reference i'm 6'1, ~12 and a half stone 1st thing in the morning after going to the loo. Body fat is around 10%, so quite low already, but there is certainly still room for reducing further.

For further reference my diet is typically 'good' and balanced. When dieting I do count calories and macronutrients using a mobile app to ensure weight is lost at a sensible rate.

In theory, I feel that I have scope to lose a good 10lbs or more, but it doesn't seem to correlate with increased performance in actual climbing, fingerboarding, pull ups, etc...


Edit: perhaps volume of climbing/training needs to be reduced while dieting to prevent overtraining?

[shark]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

[jwi]

I've heard several people saying that they got worse at "climbing" (usually bouldering & short routes) when loosing weight. Not too surprising, everyone has their ideal weight* somewhere between death from starvation and legs no longer being able to support the body.

(* A priori a maximum must exist, but it doesn't need to be unique)

[User deactivated.]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

[SA Chris]

Clearly, if you are feeling knackered and making no progress it must be wrong?

Everyone has a different metabolism / body make up / physiology.

Personally I eat a small high carb meal before a climbing session, and have something light to eat afterwards, because I'm usually starving. If I don't eat before bed, I have a crap night sleep, and wake up feeling utterly wiped and with a grumbling stomach.

Mix it up and see what works. Dieting and training hard is a fine line to walk.

[shark]

Pretty unusual to eat a big meal before training. Apart from anything I think I’d throw up.

[SA Chris]

Yep, i can feel it dragging me down if i eat too much.

[moose]

I think we need a bit more context.  You feel you can lose another ~10 lb but we do not know how much weight you have already lost whilst in your performance plateau, and how long that plateau has been.  Perhaps the weight loss has not been substantial enough for any real gains.  Or, maybe you need more time to consolidate gains - a recruitment issue or similar - you need time for the body to get used to its newly expanded physical limits?

+1 for jwi's anecdotal evidence of loss of bouldering ability with weight loss.  I lost around 3 stone after an operation, I eventually regained almost a stone but have never got anywhere close to my old grit bouldering form.  So, rather than resolve the issue by adopting a sensible structured diet and training plan I just became a sport climber!

[User deactivated.]

I think we need a bit more context.  You feel you can lose another ~10 lb but we do not know how much weight you have already lost whilst in your performance plateau, and how long that plateau has been.  Perhaps the weight loss has not been substantial enough for any real gains.  Or, maybe you need more time to consolidate gains - a recruitment issue or similar - you need time for the body to get used to its newly expanded physical limits?

I began climbing 3 and a half years ago at around 14 stone coming from a background of martial arts and weightlifting. Core and overall body strength were already good, which allowed me to quickly (~6 months) get up to V3/4 sort of standard with climbing technique being the limiting factor. Over the past 3 years I've gradually come down to the weight of 12 and a half stone and increased max boulder grade to V7 and redpoint routes up to 7b+.

However I attribute this improvement entirely to better technique as I am no better on a campus/finger board than I was after just 6 months of climbing (admittedly shouldn't have got on either so soon but seems like I got away with it) despite the weight loss.

I reached 12 and a half stone a year ago, began following the Eva Lopez fingerboard plan and saw zero progress in 6 months, other than sometimes getting marginally stronger for a few sessions and then weaker again the next few with no rhyme or reason (diet/stress/sleep all stable). Still the general trend over the period was zero progress for finger strength - though I did manage to gain upper body strength to achieve one arm pull ups which would suggest there's nothing physically wrong with me.

For the last few months I've been following the Barrows sport climbing plan for an upcoming trip and have seen significant improvements to (power)endurance. Strength and absolute top end power naturally dipped a little, but nothing too concerning. 6 weeks ago I decided to cut weight further and got down to 12 stone 2 but just noticed my strength, power diminishing further  and even endurance suffered slightly. I've gained the weight back and they have somewhat returned (strength and power still lower than prior to recent diet).

I go on my sport climbing trip in 3 weeks so I'm not going to change anything else now and will start to taper down my training. When I return I want to focus 100% on bouldering and specifically finger strength to weight ratio. God help me

[Oldmanmatt]

Too much, too fast.

Rather than set a precise target weight, allow yourself to settle into a suitable diet and let the weightloss follow suit.
The symptoms you describe fit (with normal internet diagnosis caveats) or at least seem to hint at overtraining/under eating.
You are aiming for a climbing trip, not your one shot at an Olympic gold.

If one of my clients started reporting such symptoms, I’d be reassessing everything.

[monkoffunk]

Have you changed what and how much you eat pre training/climbing during your dieting phase from your non dieting phase?

[tomtom]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/03/how-lose-weight-in-shower-notes-queries?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[thekettle]

I've heard several people saying that they got worse at "climbing" (usually bouldering & short routes) when loosing weight. Not too surprising, everyone has their ideal weight* somewhere between death from starvation and legs no longer being able to support the body.

(* A priori a maximum must exist, but it doesn't need to be unique)

I definitely had this experience in my bouldering. I dropped 6lb from 9% to 6.5% BF, and definitely lost top end power with it. Went back up 6lb and bouldered my hardest ever.Gained another 2lb when I started on creatine and feel even better!
Yet to try weight loss for enduranc-y routes but it may be more effective there.

[powderpuff]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

My advice would be to eat your big carb filled meal 7 hours before training,so if you train in the evening carb up at lunch. Also It seems a mistake to me, not to eat after your evening session as this will hinder your recovery.

[teestub]

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening.

The phrase tea time seems to vary significantly in meaning around the country, are you talking about lunchtime, mid afternoon, around 5 o clock or later?

Also as others have noted, there's good evidence that eating some carbs after training is pretty key in improving recovery.

[User deactivated.]

Too much, too fast.

Rather than set a precise target weight, allow yourself to settle into a suitable diet and let the weightloss follow suit.
The symptoms you describe fit (with normal internet diagnosis caveats) or at least seem to hint at overtraining/under eating.
You are aiming for a climbing trip, not your one shot at an Olympic gold.

If one of my clients started reporting such symptoms, I’d be reassessing everything.

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!

I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

 

[mrjonathanr]

An anecdote, but an instructive experience for me.

I was climbing in France one cold winter and looking more ripped by the day. Eating salads for tea, a little pasta etc. Started really struggling to progress on 2 projects at Volx and finally cracked, packed up and tootled off to the bakery. I ate two chaussons aux pommes, an entire pack of Prince chocolate biscuits and then back at the campsite scoffed a monster amount of cheese and pasta.

I did both projects the next day.

[User deactivated.]

Have you changed what and how much you eat pre training/climbing during your dieting phase from your non dieting phase?

The difference between maintaining my weight and losing it is ~250 calories. This is managed by making small adjustments to portion sizes throughout the day, so to answer your question - yes

[User deactivated.]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

My advice would be to eat your big carb filled meal 7 hours before training,so if you train in the evening carb up at lunch. Also It seems a mistake to me, not to eat after your evening session as this will hinder your recovery.

I'll give this a try

[moose]

The phrase tea time seems to vary significantly in meaning around the country, are you talking about lunchtime, mid afternoon, around 5 o clock or later?

 

That's always been one of those linguistic wrinkles that has interested me.   My own experience is that there is both a class and regional element.  At home, dinner was at noon-1pm, teatime was the main meal at around 4pm (Dad worked shifts and was up early, so we ate our main meal practically as soon as I got home from school).  Literary mentions suggest to me that this might originally have been a rural / factory labourer's practice  - up at 4am to milk cows / start shift etc, have an early main meal, in bed near sunset. University and life since has transformed dinner to lunch (at noon-1pm), with the main meal renamed dinner and occurring later, from 6pm to 8pm, with teatime disappearing.  I still have difficulty adjusting  when visiting home - I end up having my Mum's lovingly prepared tea microwaved 4 hours past prime!

[moose]

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!
I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

I read accounts like this, and on the UKC "fitclub" threads, and wonder if I am a physiological freak.  For years, my weight has varied randomly within a roughly 8lb range - up and down, all over the place.  Admittedly there has been an overall trend (upwards... damn!) but I am still often 5lb lighter or heavier from Monday to Monday.   Yet other folk read "deep" physiological information into 1lb differences....

Incidentally, I am at my heaviest for a while now, +7ish lb average week-on-week from my weight when I last hit a RP peak, yet my fingerboard performance is my best ever: least kg assistance ever required for 1-arm hangs.  Bizarre really, I could explain an improvement in a muscular issue with a bit of added beef, like weighted pull-ups, but a gain in pure finger strength is unexpected.

[tomtom]

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!
I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

I read accounts like this, and on the UKC "fitclub" threads, and wonder if I am a physiological freak.  For years, my weight has varied randomly within a roughly 8lb range - up and down, all over the place.  Admittedly there has been an overall trend (upwards... damn!) but I am still often 5lb lighter or heavier from Monday to Monday.   Yet other folk read "deep" physiological information into 1lb differences....

Incidentally, I am at my heaviest for a while now, +7ish lb average week-on-week from my weight when I last hit a RP peak, yet my fingerboard performance is my best ever: least kg assistance ever required for 1-arm hangs.  Bizarre really, I could explain an improvement in a muscular issue with a bit of added beef, like weighted pull-ups, but a gain in pure finger strength is unexpected.

Interesting Moose - my weight will vary throughout the week by maybe 1-2lbs measured at the same time every day etc.... But varies during a day by 2-4 lbs depending on hydration, size of meals, bodily functions etc.. (which I’d expect).

However I have a colleague of similar scrawny build to myself, who says his weight varies by up to 8lb during a week. He does no sport or exercise save cycling to work every day (2 miles..).

FWIW my weight has stabilised over the last year to about 11st 4lbs (I’m 6’3”) with no real dieting apart from ‘being careful’ when away on holiday.

[Murph]

I am always amazed by how low your BMI is TT. And the apparent lack of effort needed to get there. Incredible.

On topic - I find losing a bit of weight helps but it helps to hang out at the lower weight for a while first. If you’ve just lost a bit of weight then there could be all sorts of unhelpful processes going on. This means, as mrjonathanr’s anecdote infers, having a good feed does work wonders, and some of my most powerful days have been whilst light (for me) but after a good day of eating.

That’s me though, Dave MacLeod dropped a stone to climb 8C and immediately profited. I guess it depends on lots of things and what works for one person might not for another.

[tomtom]

I am always amazed by how low your BMI is TT. And the apparent lack of effort needed to get there. Incredible.

Stopping drinking over the last couple of years has meant I no longer have to watch what I eat really... I never drank much (10-20 units/week) but that meant I had to exercise some portion/desert control.

[abarro81]

An anecdote, but an instructive experience for me.

I was climbing in France one cold winter and looking more ripped by the day. Eating salads for tea, a little pasta etc. Started really struggling to progress on 2 projects at Volx and finally cracked, packed up and tootled off to the bakery. I ate two chaussons aux pommes, an entire pack of Prince chocolate biscuits and then back at the campsite scoffed a monster amount of cheese and pasta.

I did both projects the next day.

This is standard - if I want to get light for a trip I diet at ~1lb/week weight loss for as long as necessary (normally ~6-15 weeks and cut ~1/2 to 1 stone), then on the trip I eat more normally rather than dieting hard. If I want to send a proj in the meantime in the UK I eat more the day before I'm going to try it/the morning of trying it. I occasionally screw up and have a bad session due to dieting too hard for a day or two but can't think of ever suffering a longer-term "real" loss of strength when dieting. In general I tend to think that my absolute strength stays similar, but that means that for every kg I take off in weight I can add a kg to my hangs etc (very roughly)... When I then put the weight back on I take a hit, so it's not an ideal long-term strategy but it works for peaking for a trip/season IMO.

As others have suggested, I reckon if I ate 1,000 cal in one go and then tried to climb too soon after I'd feel a bit crappy, especially if it was 1,000 healthy calories as that's a lot of bulk to digest - I'd be tempted to spread those calories out from a couple of hrs before the session to just after it...