[T_B]

Not the same, but similar. He always comes across as painfully unaware of how his IG posts of flight tickets might be perceived.

I work in travel (so will burn in Hell) and deal every day with the increasing ‘bucket list’ mentality of people.

I view the ignorance we’re seeing in respect of bouldering as part of the same ‘problem’.

Probably, like a lot of National Parks worldwide or most notably like Heuco, you need strict controls. To save us from ourselves.

[T_B]

Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.

What you mean is get rid of the outdoors brands?

Look at fell running. A representative body that doesn’t promote the sport, yet more and more participants and issues. I’m sure it has nothing to do with Inov-8/Salomon etc .

[petejh]

Them too.

In almost anything involving people not objects, the source of most issues can be identified by asking 'who benefits?'.

Increased participation. Who benefits?
Existing and new businesses benefit - guidebook publishers / outdoor equipment & clothing brands / instructors, guides/ specialist therapists, fitness coaches and other health-related folk on the fringes of climbing.
Professional climbers benefit.
Sponsored climbers (and those wishing to become sponsored) benefit.
Some people at the BMC who'd welcome a bigger organisation benefit.
An as yet unidentified person in the future who might not have 'done climbing' might benefit.
 
Climbers don't benefit.

[T_B]

Bet you quite like those Nomic axes 

[teestub]

Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.

I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.

[petejh]

Bet you quite like those Nomic axes 

Hehe, yes I do although the wobbly head issue is such a shoddy oversight (and so typical of Petzl/French disdain) for such an otherwise great piece of design.

[petejh]

I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.

I think what we're seeing currently is a fad. The Olympics will undoubted fuel the fashion but long-term that's all I think it is - a fashion that will move on. And some people at the BMC are keen to ride the wave. The growth of climbing walls looks like a bubble to me and I think some of them won't survive beyond 10-15 years.

[teestub]

I started climbing about 1999 and have seen steadily increasing participation since then. Pretty decent 2 decade fad.

[petejh]

Yep, I started around 1990 and have seen increases. But I do wonder because you hear (and I think I remember) there being far more people out tradding at certain points in time then at others. Same goes for sport-climbing and bouldering. I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.

[spidermonkey09]

I'd prefer to educate people to maintain access rather than take a fairly high stakes punt that the problem will go away when the 'fad' does.

The idea that the BMC is predominantly responsible for the increase in participation is laughable. As such, the above point also applies in my mind; better to use it as a force for good to maintain access than criticise at every opportunity like some are wont to do. Apologies if it was a tongue in cheek response which I have spectacularly misread.

[spidermonkey09]

. I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.

That said, I do think this is a fair comment.

[teestub]

I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.

Whether this turns out to be true or not (and to bring us somewhere towards back on topic) there are issues arising with the amount of people current;y engaged in the sport/pastime/way of life, and that's why we need to get our house in order now.

Interesting you say about sport climbing, I don't partake, but my friends who do say that Malham and Kilnsey have never been busier, is this not borne out in Wales too?

[danm]

After Almscliffe, Kilnsey and Malham are the two main crags which come up regularly on the bad behaviour radar, so this isn't just a case of fist bumping indoor bouldering wads causing chaos when they emerge from under their Moonboards and head outside.

Bounced a few ideas around this lunchtime with Grimer and a few other folk for film ideas. Hopefully we can scrape a budget together for it, having spent all our cash on a gold-plated Beastmaker for the office we're a bit strapped right now.

[petejh]

The idea that the BMC is predominantly responsible for the increase in participation is laughable. As such, the above point also applies in my mind; better to use it as a force for good to maintain access than criticise at every opportunity like some are wont to do. Apologies if it was a tongue in cheek response which I have spectacularly misread.

It was a tongue in cheek comment that you've spectacularly misread. Of course I don't think the BMC is 'predominantly responsible' for more people bouldering and acting like twats.


That said, and off topic, I do believe there are some who want the BMC to grow in ways I personally think aren't beneficial to the majority of current climbers but are beneficial to a minority of vested interests: the BMC itself, business and sponsors, pro teams and athletes.

The logical response by participants in a niche outdoor activity that impacts the playground where it takes place, is to keep a lid on it and not try to get a huge commercial bandwagon going. That isn't happening. Why? Follow the money.

[spidermonkey09]

My apologies- must have been getting hangry at lunchtime!

[Yossarian]

Bounced a few ideas around this lunchtime with Grimer and a few other folk for film ideas. Hopefully we can scrape a budget together for it, having spent all our cash on a gold-plated Beastmaker for the office we're a bit strapped right now.

Considering the seriousness of all this, and the long-term implications involved, perhaps the BMC should make some sort of original, creative statement?

Maybe some sort of snappy slogan, written on a bus...?

[cheque]

If your first exposure to bouldering is at the Depot in Manchester say, your perception is big groups, load music, lots of chalk and shouting encouragement. When you head outside for the first time, you and your group take those perceptions with you and transpose it to the countryside.

People don’t necessarily have an appreciation of the issue with access, noise pollution, visual pollution, crag etiquette etc

  Indoor climbing has a much broader appeal than rock climbing because it's had all the potentially unpleasant things removed from it. The problem we have is that what a lot of people who are ending up at the crags like most about climbing (the immediate, convenience elements) simply isn't compatible with the great outdoors and they don't realise that.

Whatever form any publicity takes, I think it needs to emphasise the  differences between indoor climbing and rock climbing.

-The wall is owned by climbers who want you to have a great time and make money from it/ The crags are owned by people who don't make any money from your climbing and have no incentive to be inconvenienced by you.

-The wall is closed when you can't climb there/ the crag is always open- you've got to use your own judgement.

-The problems at the wall will be reset so it doesn't matter how badly you trash them/ the problems at the crag will never, ever be reset so take care of them.

-etc. etc.

I reckon there's potential in that for a good video if made with the right touch, in the manner of that one where Gus is a dog.  You could also shove in some personal safety-type differences (The wall has to pass assesments that it's as safe as possible/ the crag is a piece of rock in a field that you may very well need stretchering away from etc.)

I really think the message from the BMC needs to be less "You'll all love rock climbing but please try and remember to behave yourself" and more "This is what rock climbing is- unlike indoor climbing it isn't all fun and games. Stay indoors if you don't fancy it."

But also, the most important and immediate thing any of us can do is to challenge crap behaviour whenever we see it.

[tomtom]

I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.

I think what we're seeing currently is a fad. The Olympics will undoubted fuel the fashion but long-term that's all I think it is - a fashion that will move on. And some people at the BMC are keen to ride the wave. The growth of climbing walls looks like a bubble to me and I think some of them won't survive beyond 10-15 years.

:D thats what everyone was saying in 92 when I started... its not slowed down since...

[tomtom]

Good article by Rob Greenwood on the other channel:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/respecttherock_-_the_sad_story_of_whitehouses-10208

[Paul B]

Doing something about this came up in discussion with Rob Dyer (BMC access dude) last week in the office, we were talking about posters for climbing walls and whether a "good practice when climbing outside" poster would be useful. I'll give him a nudge but I believe he's already working on it. Stuff like this has been done before, like the bouldering 10 commandments posters etc. A video might be a good idea as well.

I think it's worthy of wider consideration, discussion with big-name brands within climbing with a view of getting buy-in from  them and pushing it via their 'athletes'. If sticking 5No. cans of sugary drink X in an Instagram photo per week works, I can see this having an impact on the younger generation with respect to access (little and often rather than a one-time blitz). I can't see a poster having the same impact.

The "no dogs" signs at Bamford are often ignored, for example. Got to be worth a shot though before we lose any more quality venues.

I'm coming to the conclusion that people (including climbers) are inherently selfish whether they own a dog or not.

[Paul B]

I had a stop a pair from climbing over the wall between Badger Rock and Little Font yesterday (Kentmere).

They stopped when prompted but I got the impression they were aware they weren't doing the right thing before I spoke. I'd describe them both as young.

[Offwidth]

I do believe there are some who want the BMC to grow in ways I personally think aren't beneficial to the majority of current climbers but are beneficial to a minority of vested interests: the BMC itself, business and sponsors, pro teams and athletes.

The logical response by participants in a niche outdoor activity that impacts the playground where it takes place, is to keep a lid on it and not try to get a huge commercial bandwagon going. That isn't happening. Why? Follow the money.

A complete red herring and you can't easily put genies back in their bottles. Participation increases have little to do with the BMC but responding to those increases in appropriate ways have lots to do with the BMC, if we wish to retain the best access situations.

Dan is right:

"After Almscliffe, Kilnsey and Malham are the two main crags which come up regularly on the bad behaviour radar, so this isn't just a case of fist bumping indoor bouldering wads causing chaos when they emerge from under their Moonboards and head outside."

The problems I've seen are much less about outdoor newbies, it's usually well established climbers. How many major banned crags were due to ignorance compared to willfully bad behaviour or plain laziness?

I welcome video campigns, updated 10 commandments and even posters but we won't stop problems without a hard look at the bad behaviour of a minority already in our clique, who feel rules don't apply to them.

I've probably trespassed more than most climbers on behalf of guidebooks but have always tried to be polite to landowners (we even got permission to climb for the day at ERF rocks by making the owner laugh... the gods of grit laughed as well as we had to go and meet Grimer soon after), I'd never block gates or partly block narrow roads; wouldn't dream of shitting in someone's back garden (part of the Eagle Tor ban) and always try to have a quiet chat with those climbers doing things that could threaten access (to be honest, sometimes having more luck with access denying landowners ,..naughty kids often react badly when caught). If we all behaved well, things would obviously improve. Honest role model videos about experienced climbers behaving badly would certainly help here: outdoor newbies won't be the cause of the problems at Kilnsey.

[GazM]

There's an interesting article on the other channel about 'sustainable' outdoor behavior in general.
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/sustainability_in_the_outdoors_depends_on_fair_shares-10191

To me all this discussion flags up the fact that it's so rarely seen to be the done thing to 'not' go to a certain venue.  When did you ever see a video, #insta update, blog (or whatever) in which the protagonist says "I was going to go to crag xxx but decided that actually it's getting a bit trashed and it would probably be a good idea to give it a rest, so instead we've gone to crag yyy"?

[Durbs]

Social media from "influencers" seems like the obvious way to go with this IMO.

The amount of fuss when the IFSC sold live streams to a PPV company had many top-level climbers posting all over their Insta and FB about the wrongs of this. I've not seen anything from them (even the UK ones) about general do's & don't of outdoor climbing. Arguably/Cynically this may have been because the IFSshambles would've had direct financial impacts on them...

If people like Shauna, SBC, Nalle, Dave G, Sharma, Ondra et-al came out with a quick united message about outdoor etiquette, it would have an impact considerably over a poster at the local wall.This would be for internationally relevant stuff; tick marks, tidiness, respect for the outdoors etc.
Even small stuff like maybe less "driving to the crag" sections, more "post session chalk brushing" bits.

Ideally you could/would also just have a smaller UK campaign; Beastmakers, Moon, DMM, BMC and their ambassadors, using Whitehouses as a flashpoint to put out a quick reminder around how to behave in the great outdoors. Whether a quick video, a shared list of points (too preachy IMO) or something else, it needs to be sincere and snappy. Yoofs can smell bullshit.

Many non-rural folks (not just Londoners), probably wouldn't know you shouldn't walk on dry-stone walls, and might not even realise that gate's actually there for a purpose. Not out of willfull ignorance, just because they've not grown up in that environment. In a similar vein, many might not even know about the BMC, let alone the RAD.

The selfish folks, who do know this but ignore these just need to bow to peer pressure - the more people are informed, the more likely it is for someone to call them out if caught.

[mrjonathanr]

Social media from "influencers" seems like the obvious way to go with this IMO.

If people like Shauna, SBC, Nalle, Dave G, Sharma, Ondra et-al came out with a quick united message about outdoor etiquette, it would have an impact considerably over a poster at the local wall.This would be for internationally relevant stuff; tick marks, tidiness, respect for the outdoors etc.
Even small stuff like maybe less "driving to the crag" sections, more "post session chalk brushing" bits.

 

Inclined to agree, though you do have to wonder sometimes.. I cleaned big ticks off big holds on S+M at Newstones at the weekend AT FACE HEIGHT

How dim do you have to be to not be able to locate an 8" long edge at eye level?  Even when climbing past it's a pretty easy item to stick a foot on. Other, similarly pointless donkey-marks abounded. 

There's education, and crass stupidity. Regular hero posts about 'cleaning off those ticks y'all' got to worth a try though.