[Danny]

Question for the training illuminati on here:

I often sag in the shoulders and arms out of a max hang at ~7s towards the end of a set, but I still hold a half crimp til 10s. Aside from this demonstrating the weak link, is it a bad thing per se? Seems like I should take the extra 3 to max out my fingers rather than downshifting the weight and holding form? I know the conventional thinking is based on avoiding injury, but it doesn't *feel* like this is likely to result in injury in the same way that dynamic exercises are.

[bendavison]

In my opinion, this is okay and is pretty likely to happen when pushing your fingers. You wouldn't sag on a jug...

[monkoffunk]

Are you totally passive on your shoulders at the end then? I think it's more about chronic gradual build up of injury rather than something suddenly happening like if your fingers fail. I'd go down on weight.

[Danny]

Two contrasting replies there. Yes, totally passive I think—it takes about 3s to get there. But not so different from this chap's superficial form throughout:



Two things: elbows are slightly bent and they straighten; shoulder blades are pinned and they open.

[monkoffunk]

I tend to have elbows more flexed and shoulders engaged. Have enough weight so I can maintain this form almost completely static for 10 sec. I've always thought passive hangs cause more injury long term. I may be wrong though, be good to see more opinion!

[dave]

I would have thought maintaining good form was beneficial all round.

[Danny]

I would have thought maintaining good form was beneficial all round.

Part of me agrees. In any case, failure of form at 7s seems like a good way to bring on that aspect of strength *provided* it's not going to wreck me. I guess that's the key question. On the passive/active thing, IDK. Might depend on whether you want to get strong a la Dave Graham or strong in a more rounded way.

[nai]

Hasn't it been proven that you don't need to train at max volume (at least not all of the time) to make gains so would it make sense to drop back just enough so that good form can be maintained?

[Danny]

That's a good point if true. My knowledge base on the entire topic of 'proper' training is thin at best. Is it true? I have the vague notion that not going to 'max volume', or whatever, equates to not getting totally pumped/tired during your session. Max hangs never seem to have that effect on me. Repeaters do.

It's worth mentioning that I've only been at this a few months (training) and I am making measurable gains.

[monkoffunk]

I asked a friend who does know a lot about training and got following back:

"Your shoulders sag and the hang is over. You always want the whole chain involved."

Reiterated above point by ben that sagging at 7 does not mean that shoulders/elbows are weak link: "Also it's bullshit that he wouldn't be isolating weakest link. He wouldn't be sagging at 7sec if was holding two jugs."

In terms of why: "The injury risk is to shoulders and elbows, but the whole chain is relevant for specificity. You take a hold and you pull on it. You always engage that chain in climbing."

Guess the point is ultimately you want training gains that apply most to climbing without getting injured.

[monkoffunk]

It's worth mentioning that I've only been at this a few months (training) and I am making measurable gains.

Don't need to rush IMO! Further info: "my personal experience with collapsing out of hangs means injury for shoulder or elbow sooner or later." It maybe you haven't got there yet.

It's anecdotal evidence but best I've got anyway!

[Danny]

Seems convincing, thanks for the input. I think I'll take it back a notch. I don't follow the line of reasoning on elbows/shoulders not being the weak link. It seems obvious to me that they are: not sagging on jugs doesn't demonstrate they're not. But I might actually test that.

[Rocksteady]

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/esther-smith-shoulder-maintenance-for-climbers.html

This article (from the Black Diamond team physio) is pretty clear that hanging with shoulders actively engaged is the way forward to avoid injury.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Good question from the OP - in view of the other questions it raises. Some thoughts. I often have a session on the fingerboard after working arms, and I'm therefore too tired for "max" hangs. I don't want to injure my shoulders/arms, so look for other ways of taking things back a notch ;-) A session of "Max hangs" may give you the biggest number/ego trip, but there are other ways of working your fingers to reduce load on shoulders/arms. To address this first, I often try to work "front 3" or "back 3" - rather than full grip. This reduces the impact/load on arms etc, while still being able to work a "max (for 3 fingers) hang". Of course, you can do the same with 2 or each single finger (and injure those instead :-P). The other question, addresses "why you sag?". Is it because of weakness in the shoulder? This is relevant to how vulnerable to injury you may be. If you hold an edge with a bent arm, as you approach failure in the hang, the tendency is often to let the arm straighten, and as you do this, you momentarily reduce the load on the fingers - extending the hang, which then fails as you reach full extension. In this case, this is not related to weakness in the shoulders. If you continue to load the shoulders when "sagging", then yes, you probably are more likely to cause injury over time. If you design your hang session around a series of repeated hangs, then towards the end of the set, some sagging would probably indicate that you've got the load correct. If however, you're sagging in the early reps/hangs, then I'd suggest you're going for too much too soon. This applies to most training, where loss of form is a good indicator of correct loading/or not. Do I always follow my own advise? Nope. Do I suffer occasional shoulder impingement problems? Er .. yes 

[Eddies]

[Danny]

Useful feedback and discussion. What I've learnt from the BD article is that the way I pin my shoulders isn't quite correct, and from the video of Mason it seems that the bend I have in my elbows is too much/not necessary. I had a go at correcting both these aspects and it turns out it's easier to hold form. 

[monkoffunk]

What's interesting about some videos of pros is that they don't all have good form and do things that would injure your average punter. But these guys are incredibly conditioned and get away with it! For example:



Even if I could try that it would screw my elbows.

More relevant to this discussion:


I don't think many of us would get away with that form on the one arm hangs there because we just aren't anything like as strong.

Think that's why the Dave Mason video is good. For what it's worth I find it easier with my elbows a bit more bent than him so that's what I do, but whateves.

[tomtom]

I used to deadhang with straight arms and relaxed not engaged shoulders.

After not doing it for a year or two when I went back I spent quite a while making sure my form was right. Shoulders engaged chest forward, arms bent (try and keep a straight back). It took a while for my shoulders/arms to catch up with my fingers but now it’s fine.

Just going through a similar process moving from open hand to half crimp.. up to 15kg so far which is probably feeble

[monkoffunk]

up to 15kg so far which is probably feeble

Paige Claassen used 15kg for her weighted pull ups training for Odin's Eye!

[Rocksteady]

What's interesting about some videos of pros is that they don't all have good form and do things that would injure your average punter. But these guys are incredibly conditioned and get away with it! For example:
I don't think many of us would get away with that form on the one arm hangs there because we just aren't anything like as strong.

My view is that one of the reasons some people make progress to elite levels is being genetically lucky with good collagen/connective tissue that means they can tolerate higher training loads and get away with exercises that would damage less genetically gifted people.

[Oldmanmatt]

I almost want that tattooed across my arse...


But I'll settle for scrawling it on my knee brace in marker pen.

[cowboyhat]

More relevant to this discussion:


I don't think many of us would get away with that form on the one arm hangs there because we just aren't anything like as strong.

Think that's why the Dave Mason video is good. For what it's worth I find it easier with my elbows a bit more bent than him so that's what I do, but whateves.

Whats up with P Robs face? He looks like he's had botox and fillers around his eyes.