[Bubba]

Yeah, a lot of the gangsta stuff doesn't really apply over here....but like I say. listen to the Skinnyman and it's the same dissaffected stuff, just with less guns, bitches and ho's.

[Bonjoy]

75% of all gun crime in britain is commited by one black male towards another.

 Them's two angry guys, yes sir-eeee :wink:

[Fingers of a Martyr]

no i 'get' the thing in rap music and i can't be arsed with it.
yeah they ain't rapping about what's happenin in britain but similar 'ghetto style gun cultures' still exist in britain and that has come from american influences such as the rap music. the same cultures exist but they obviously don't face the same problems (or perhaps on the same scale) as the americans.

but remember 75% of gun crime in britain is committed by one black male towards another. that says it all. its not 75% directed at white bnp thugs or racist police (which wud probably be better).

back to my main point being u say that their's loads of shit going down in new york. fair enough but their aren't shitloads of drive-bys and turf wars going down in sheffield :wink:

at the end of the day u've got your opinions and i've got mine. we can talk it about but neither one us is 'right'.

bonjoy wrote

Them's two angry guys, yes sir-eeee

lol  

[Bubba]

no i 'get' the thing in rap music and i can't be arsed with it.

As with any genre, plz don't generalise - rap is many-faceted, the cliched gangsta thing is just one part. Same as any music innit - I don't listen to any metal, but I'm sure not going to write it off as all one thing.

yeah they ain't rapping about what's happenin in britain but similar 'ghetto style gun cultures' still exist in britain and that has come from american influences such as the rap music.

Possibly. But does the music really cause people to act this way, or is just that the circumstances are similar?

back to my main point being u say that their's loads of shit going down in new york. fair enough but their aren't shitloads of drive-bys and turf wars going down in sheffield :wink:

It's only a matter of time. I've met a guy who's had a gun pulled on him in   a club here. And Manchester/Nottingham/Birmingham/London all have big gun problems. Sheffield has always been pretty safe for a big city but it's not going to stay like that.

at the end of the day u've got your opinions and i've got mine. we can talk about but neither one us is 'right'.

Exactly - the beauty of discussion forums.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

sorry about the genre generalisation. i do like some rap by the way. and no its not rap-metal. :D hang on i don't even like 'metal' :? its emo boyz c'mon get wit the times :  :wink:

me an some people were out drinkin and this guy had a gun on him and their fuckin scary things. i was shittin meself and all he was doing was showing it to us.

It's only a matter of time. I've met a guy who's had a gun pulled on him in a club here. And Manchester/Nottingham/Birmingham/London all have big gun problems. Sheffield has always been pretty safe for a big city but it's not going to stay like that.

and who do think is responsible for cultivating this culture :?:  75%  :wink:
i'm sorry but thats a large majority and there are just as many white people livin in tough/shit/hard (watever u wanna call them, places i'd and probably u'd rather not live) areas but they don't go around shootin each other do they?

[Bubba]

WTF is emo? Give me some recommendations and I'll download some stuff.

I get what you're saying, but it's way too simplistic just to blame it on "rap culture". There must be more to it than that.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

ahhhhh, emo, the music genre of gods :wink:  it may be a bit of an aquired taste though bubba. :wink:

anyhoo

'taking back sunday' pretty much epitomise (i hope i'm using that word in the right context here :? ) mordern day emo.

song reccomendations - little devotional, one eighty by summer and set phasers to stun. but to be honest i fuckin love every song they've done.

funeral for a friend r my personal fav's but r a bit heavier than tbs.

song reccomendations - escape artists never die, this years most open heartbreak, bullet theory, waking up.

brand new - not really emo but sort of

S R -  the quiet things, the boy that blocked his own shot

poison the well - heavy stuff

S R- torn, apathy is a cold body, grain of salt, slice paper wrists

there's a LOT of shite though floating around under the genre emo as this seems to be the latest genre that the big name music companies have latched onto and saturated in their shameless pursuit of money instead of quality. :evil:  :roll:

[Tom de Gay]

Dear Fingers,

You need to give the source for your 75% stat : who came up with it, when, where and how? What are the actual figures? It doesn't have much credibility taken out of context.

In the meantime, read this :

www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Michael_Moore/Kill_Whitey_SWM.html

[Fingers of a Martyr]

yo tom the stat was taken from the governments annual crime report thing and it was out of 100% of the gun crime committed in britain was by bm to another bm.


once again michael moore is american and i'm talkin about in britain and the main problem with moore is when u read the article u start to think that maybe he's right. but actually think about it for a second.
he say's a black guy has never done him any harm in his life. if he walked through :insert name of infamous black ghetto in america: at night i'm sure he'd change his mind.
and then send him to one of the african nations where children are stolen from their homes and trained to kill each other. i'm sure he'd change his mind about how black people are the innocent victims of the world. bullshit they are the same as the rest off us some good, some bad and some plain evil.so don't give me moores bullshit. use your mind and think. it would be easy to come with a list similar to moores only the other way round.

ever heard of president mugabe? lets his nation starve daily. sounds like a real nice, caring, humble guy to me :roll:

[Tom de Gay]

The Home Office Annual Crime Report  for 2003/4 is here :

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/crimeew0304.html

I can't find this '75%' stat anywhere. The only classification by race in the report is on p84 (p95 in pdf), where it specifies white and non-white. Can you post a link to where this stat actually came from?

It's also worth bearing in mind that gun crime is just 0.18% of all recorded crime (2001/2 Home Office Report, the most recent data on gun crime).

Michael Moore is indeed American, but racism is a problem in Britain too: I'm sure you remember the Stephen Lawrence enquiry. Much of what Moore says in that article holds true for Britain, unfortunately.

you say :

"there are just as many white people livin in tough/shit/hard (watever u wanna call them, places i'd and probably u'd rather not live) areas but they don't go around shootin each other do they?"

This is a rather contentious statement, so let's see the evidence. Is it not the case that white males are economically and socially more prosperous than other social groups? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's fair to suggest that gun crime is more a symptom of poverty than an aspect of race.


As to the 8 mile debris radius, than sounds fairly plausible to me. I imagine a plane weighs a fair bit (especially when half-full of fuel) and travelling at 500mph, it must have some considerable momentum. After all, the runway at Heathrow is nearly 4km long.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

tom i can't find that stat on the website but i remember seeing it on the news when the reports came out. (cos there two reports or summit and they conflicted i seem to remember. 1 buy the government and one by the police) :?

anyway i seen that stat on the news and it stuck in my head. i'll have a proper look on the net and post it up if i find it as i realise it's quite a bold thing to quote with no evidence to back it up.

you say :This is a rather contentious statement, so let's see the evidence. Is it not the case that white males are economically and socially more prosperous than other social groups? Correct me if I'm wrong.:

i'm not really sure what u mean by this? r u tryin to say that there aren't large levels of white people livin in bad/poor conditions?

you say :I think it's fair to suggest that gun crime is more a symptom of poverty than an aspect of race.:

most gun crime is gang related and i can't see how poverty could possibly bring people to shoot each other.



did u get any emo bubba? wot do u think of it?

[Bubba]

most gun crime is gang related and i can't see how poverty could possibly bring people to shoot each other.

Yes, a lot of the shootings are between rival gangs of drug-dealers, but you have to look at why black people are over-represented in such groups.

If you have a social group that is discriminated against in virtually all walks of life...job interviews/by the police/in higher education/healthcare/etc, etc then surely it's inevitable that many more people from that social group try to make money in ways that aren't legitimate?

did u get any emo bubba? wot do u think of it?

Mmmmm....I've only had a quick listen and at first hear it's not really my thing - I didn't really like the Taking back Sunday but the Funeral for a Friend "Spilling blood in 8mm" live stuff I downloaded is much better and not bad at all.

I think the main thing I don't like about that sort of music is the drum sounds - really flat and weak.

[Nigel]

you say :This is a rather contentious statement, so let's see the evidence. Is it not the case that white males are economically and socially more prosperous than other social groups? Correct me if I'm wrong.:

i'm not really sure what u mean by this? r u tryin to say that there aren't large levels of white people livin in bad/poor conditions?

No, in a very basic nutshell he's saying that your "poor" white people aren't as poor as the "poor" in other social groups.

you say :I think it's fair to suggest that gun crime is more a symptom of poverty than an aspect of race.:

most gun crime is gang related and i can't see how poverty could possibly bring people to shoot each other.

You don't have to "see" it for it to be true, which it is. Look at it the other way - what proportion of gun crime is not committed by those living in poverty? Not much!

P.S. Apologies for the generalisations!

[Fingers of a Martyr]

ok lets say your're all right. a majority of black people in britain r  living in poverty and discriminated against by everyone the police/healthcare etc

answer this

why kill each other!?
why not unite and make a positive difference instead of a negative one?
why make it worse?
why encourage the genralisation and cliches by acting up to the macho gun culture?

[Nigel]

why kill each other!? why not unite and make a positive difference instead of a negative one?

Because not all black people are friends with each other, especially when they are rivals in the drugs trade, for example.

why encourage the genralisation and cliches by acting up to the macho gun culture?

I don't think that those black people who do shoot each other are doing it to act up to stereotype!

[Tom de Gay]

The percentage of white people living in unfit dwellings is smaller than the percentage of non-white :

http://www.irr.org.uk/statistics/housing.html

As to the gun crime/gang thing, I'm assuming that most gangsters are coming from a background of desperate poverty. Had they had a more priveleged upbringing I think they would perhaps be too busy going to university, getting a job etc. Of course, this is pure speculation, so set me straight if you know better.

If you're interested in fascists, I suggest a visit to   http://www.kkk.com/  It's pretty interesting, in a disturbing sort of way. There are some amazing lies and abuses of history, like 'we burn crosses because that's an ancient Scottish tradition' and 'we wear white hoods because it's a tradition, just like politicians in the British Parliament wear wigs'. And much worse.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

I don't think that those black people who do shoot each other are doing it to act up to stereotype!

yeah maybe not 100% intentionally but thats what they're doing.

[Nigel]

I would also say not 100%. Probably 0%. As cause and effect goes, I would say that the stereotype is caused by the fact that some black people are 'gangsters'. The reason they are gangsters is to be found elsewhere.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

If you're interested in fascists, I suggest a visit to http://www.kkk.com/ It's pretty interesting, in a disturbing sort of way. There are some amazing lies and abuses of history, like 'we burn crosses because that's an ancient Scottish tradition' and 'we wear white hoods because it's a tradition, just like politicians in the British Parliament wear wigs'. And much worse.

don't u dare try and insinuate that i support or condone anything people like that do or believe. i have good friends of hispanic and chinese background and gay friends and i find stuff like that offensive. i have never once condoned, encouraged or laughed at racism during this thread. i was putting across a point of view that in your eyes isn't right. fine maybe i'm wrong and you're right. who knows. but don't try to put across that i'm 'interested' in the kkk a dangerous and stupid organisation. i know enough about them already so i don't need to click on that link.

[Tom de Gay]

Don't worry, I'm sure you're not a fascist! I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. It's an interesting website, worth a look if you're interested in racism, propaganda etc. You'll note that even the Klan are Equal Opportunities Employer these days; they claim to have two black employees who distribute their racial sepratist propaganda.

Obviously the Klan are a dangerous and stupid organisation, but you can't pretend they don't exist : they should be confronted and proven wrong.

[Bubba]

If you want to try to understand the racists, you have to read their propoganda, no matter how unpleasant it may be - also check out:

http://www.bnp.org.uk/
http://www.redwatch.co.uk/indexx.html

and on the other side:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/default.stm
(the panorama program linked from this site which you can still watch is quite an eye opener)
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/

[Fingers of a Martyr]

i wasn't tryin to say the kkk don't exist :? i've read bnp propaganda and watched programs about them before. its madness.

the holocaust didn't happen? yeah right and i flashed 5 f8c's yesterday? :wink:

[Tim Heaton]

As a statistician can I wave a slight note of caution to all the stats coming out.

From what I have read both Tom and Finger's coud well be correct in what they are saying.

Tom is saying that a larger percentage of the black population is poor - indeed correct if you base it on those living in unfit housing reading that stat.

Finger's is saying that there are more poor white people - also quite possibly correct using the same statistics.

The crucial difference is the proportion/total number

Estimating numbers that table says that 10% of black people live in poverty versus 5% of white's. Surely however there are more than twice as many white's than black's in this country meaning that there are more white people (in total number) living in poverty.

As an aside to the purely technical point above that you should be very careful in your interpretation of stats my personal opinion veers towards the opinion that crime is mainly a factor of poverty but exacerbated by "role models" (if that is what you can call them) in whatever society you live in. Whatever ethnic origin you are, if you are poor and you see that some bloke down the street is well off and they are offering you what seems to be easy money then who would not be tempted, I am sure I probably would be :?:.

I think dealing with crime is something that the whole population needs to address, it is no good blaming it on one aspect of society and saying they should sort it out themselves while we sit back in our middle class homes enjoying our middle class lives. We need to provide oppurtunities so that at a young age people do not fall into a criminal way of living from which I would have thought it is very difficult to escape.

End of boring soap box      

[Fingers of a Martyr]

Estimating numbers that table says that 10% of black people live in poverty versus 5% of white's. Surely however there are more than twice as many white's than black's in this country meaning that there are more white people (in total number) living in poverty.

shit i should have seen that. no wonder i flunked me maths gsce... :roll:

[dave]

have just read through todays posts. seems like fingers is saying in a roundabout way that a lot of black people shoot a lot of black people, but not many white shoot whites, thus there must be something bad with the blacks. I don't know if i've summarised your point as well as possible in my own words, but inknow what you are saying, and its a grossly ignorant and simplistic viewpoint. its like you think that a load of black people were created and a load of white people were and then all stuck together on this big island, and somehow the blacks went bad? its bollocks. theres very complex social, historical reasons why blacks may be overrepresented in some areas of crime, you can't just simplify. its gross oversimplifications of racial situations like that that the nazis used in the 30s to justify persecuting jews etc. and did you ever stop to think that holding such ill-informed predudices acutally helps excaberate the problem?

theres no simple or clear cut answer to any social problem on this planet, you can't just say "its these guys fault" they're all bad its it up to them to sort it out. I guarantee that if you look back at what you've written in 7 years time you'll think "what the fuck was i saying?".

And frankly i think the notion that black youths take to guns and shit to live up to rap steroetypes (as opposed to socio-economic reasons) is totally laughable. if that was the case, then rich middle class black fellaz would also be walking around with glocks.  :roll: