[hongkongstuey]

an interesting little clip regarding the plane that crashed into the Pentagon

[Bonjoy]

Very interesting. Does the website go on to give an alternative explanation?

[SA Chris]

Interesting is an understatement. :?

[Bubba]

Hmmmm....that is very intersting.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of evicence of a large plane having crashed, no wreckage, etc, etc.

But...

- In that case what happened to the 757? Was it shot down?
- How do all those people happen to know what a missile flying overhead sounds like? I know it's the Pentagon but I find it hard to believe.
- Are the photos of the hole just part of the damage - are we seeing the whole story?
- Was a fighter plane lost that day?
- Why cover it up? Hiding the dissapearence of a large passenger aircraft is surely much harder than just telling it straight?

[jonP]

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[Bubba]

And snopes usually seem to be right....so I'll go with their version.

[dave]

i remember reading something like that before and there were a few irregularities but some claims were a bit sketchy. All that about "wheres the wing damage" and "wheres the wreckage" is all specualtion since i doubt any of us or any of the people who've written that stuff have ever seen a highly reinforced govement building hit by a plane before, or experienced the aftermath of air crashes in great detail before, so its all speculation.

if it wasn't a airliner, then what happene to the airline that was hijacked? i very much doubt it could have crashed anywhere on the east coast unnoticed. Or if that airline ddin't exist then presumable to lack of family for any of the presumabley fictional passengers would surely have been noticed.

the thing thats bollocks is that thing about "the hijacker couldn't have flown a plane". now bearing in mind the technically hard parts of flying a plane are the takeoff and landing, i don't think taking control of it in the air and crashing it would have been beyond anyone with even the most basical theoretical grasp of flying.

[Bubba]

But, what happened to Flight 93?

I think the jury is still out on this one. But finding debris 8 miles from the crash site is a tad suspicious imho.

[jonP]

But, what happened to Flight 93?

I find that a helpful guideline when considering conspiracy theories is "they're all bollocks".

[dave]

whats all this about "hijacked by autopilot" thing?

does look like that 93 was shot down. debris just don't get 8miles by accident. plus one of them pages names the pilot.

[Bubba]

I find that a helpful guideline when considering conspiracy theories is "they're all bollocks".

Often I'd be inclined to agree, but to say that they're all bollocks requires an unflinching faith in the honesty and integrity of governments when it comes to informing their peoples. This is something I don't have.

Take for example the conspiracy theory that Iraq never had WMD and we just waged war on them to maintain a grip on dwindling oil supplies.

Now that could never be true, could it?

[webbo]

i hear a lot conspiracy theories in my job but then i do work in the mental health services. :wink:

[MrBlue]

i remember watching a program about this on c4 at some crazy hour in the morning...

they got the editor of jane's and an aeronautical engineer to comment and their explanations were both pretty similar - as the plane crumpled into the building the wings were folded backwards to sit alongside the fuselage, rather than falling off and being left behind as might be expected.

i believe the book on it was written by some french guy who believes everything was a conspiracy - he's written loads of conspiracy theory books on every imaginable subject. nice money spinner.

 :roll:

[Fingers of a Martyr]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844370364/pd_ka_1/202-8831268-3813410

if anyone wants some real info on what  happened on 9 11 01 read this book. word.

[jonP]

if anyone wants some real info on what  happened on 9 11 01 read this book. word.

I can't understand why anyone would buy that book when normal toilet paper is so much cheaper.

[a dense loner]

conspiracy theories are highly amusing bullshit. the problem is that some are quite plausible.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

I can't understand why anyone would buy that book when normal toilet paper is so much cheaper

i would have assumed most people would have bought it to educate themselves about one the most important events in world politics/affairs that has happened this century, not to wipe shit off their arses. but then again, every one to their own and all that.

[Bonjoy]

if anyone wants some real info on what  happened on 9 11 01 read this book. word.

I can't understand why anyone would buy that book when normal toilet paper is so much cheaper.

 Why does this sort of thing piss you off so much?

[Sloper]

I too deal with lots of people who believe in conspiracy theories, my favourite who believed that the Court etc was prejudiced against him because he had a persecutory delusional disorder.  WTF :roll:

[Paz]

conspiracy theories are highly amusing bullshit. the problem is that some are quite plausible.

They just sound plausible if you're not informed about the facts and are unfamiliar with the technicalities, which is normally the case with the people who create this bull.

[Bonjoy]

conspiracy theories are highly amusing bullshit. the problem is that some are quite plausible.

They just sound plausible if you're not informed about the facts and are unfamiliar with the technicalities, which is normally the case with the people who create this bull.

 I'm not advocating conspiracy theorists here, but couldn't the same be said for much of what we are told by our governments?

[Bubba]

I agree - anyone who automatically believes that all conspiracy theories are bullshit is just being naiive about the fact that governements never lie to their subjects to protect themselves, or to further their own agenda.

As to being ignorant about the facts - which facts do you believe? There are quite a few conspiracy theories that might very well turn out to be true - this example is *apparantly* verifiable from court records:

... Many people who died during the final assault on the Branch Davidian community in Waco, TX, were killed by the FBI, not at the hands of Davidian members as reported. The GovtMedia conspires to cover-up and censor the facts proving this.

FACT 1: The major media widely reported that the children determined to have died due to blunt-force trauma were beaten to death by their parents. Putting the lie to this report, in November of '93, the pathologist who did the autopsies, Dr. Rodney Crowe, said on the Maury Povich Show that the children who died of blunt-force trauma were in fact crushed to death after a tank rammed the concrete room they and their mothers were in trying to escape the tank attack. The ramming caused significant portions of the insides of the concrete walls to fragment and fall on to the more than 40 women and children inside the concrete room called the "bunker" by the media.

Dr. Crowe was irate about the media's fraudulent report that claimed these children were beaten to death by their parents, when in fact they were killed by FBI tanks that rammed the room, which, due to widespread bugging, the FBI must have known the women and children where in.

FACT 2: Medical examiner Nizaam Peerwani testified at the Davidian's trial (transcripts: 5979, 6029) that many women and children in the concrete room died due to suffocation after being buried under debris from the collapsing walls, which, as Dr. Crowe noted, was caused by a tank ramming the room. The autopsy report states that these women and children died by "suffocation due to overlay and burial in structural collapse." Did you hear about this anywhere in the news?

FACT 3: According to former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, infra-red (FLIR) video taken from the FBI's own helicopter proves that, with full-automatic machineguns, the FBI fired heavily into the Mt Carmel center just as the fire started, which was when people would most likely try to exit. The FLIR video also proves that Davidians did NOT fire out at the tanks on that day as reported by the GovtMedia. That bit of disinformation was a key pretext to speeding up the demolition of the building. Ramsey Clark will be using this FLIR video in upcoming wrongful death suits against the so-called "Department of Justice." Ramsey Clark spoke about this FLIR video footage at the April 19, 1996 memorial gathering in Waco, TX.

FACT 4: Toxicologist Dr. William Marcus, testified at the Congressional Hearings on Waco that the CS molecule contains a "cyanide radical" that could have been transdermally absorbed by the children due to their thin skin. CS also converts to hydrogen cyanide when burned. In fact, surviving bodies where found to contain very high levels of cyanide. Dr. Marcus also observed that CS is a heavy particle that was suspended in the air like a gas only for a brief period, carried by the flammable and toxic agent methyl chloride, thus CS particles fall quickly to the ground.

The FBI calculated that if spread evenly over the known sq. feet of indoor space, the tons of CS pumped in should not have exceeded safe levels. But this was a deception because, as CS quickly falls, very high concentrations would be found toward the floor along with the children and fallen adults, in fact, 10 to 100x higher than if uniformly distributed.

I believe that these facts prove the conspiracy theory that the government killed many or most of the people who died on April 19, 1993 at Waco, TX. The facts also strongly suggest, to say the least, that the government killed with intent. They also prove that the media censors all those facts that indicate govt culpability in favor of false claims that demonize the victims of government abuse, thereby rendering the media a willing accessory to mass murder and to the obstruction of justice...."


I've not read that book that FOAM posted, but the idea that the Bush administration carried out 9/11 to instigate it's "war on terror" - unlikely perhaps, but notimpossible.

Personally I think the official Flight 93 story is bullshit. There is just too much evidence to the contrary: witness accounts of a second plane in the area; burning debris falling; debris and human remains found up to 8 miles from the crash site and a report from a passenger that an explosion was heard near the plane and white smoke was coming from the plane.
I don't think that any government/military being faced with another WTC style crash would hesitate to give the order for the plane to be shot down, but they could at least fess up afterwards rather than try to cover the whole thing up.

[Paz]

I agree - anyone who automatically believes that all conspiracy theories are bullshit is just being naiive

It's generally a good initial assumption.

[Bonjoy]

I agree - anyone who automatically believes that all conspiracy theories are bullshit is just being naiive

It's generally a good initial assumption.

 Granted, as long as you apply the same cynicism to all uncorroborated(sp?) media.

[Paz]

I just had to look that up in the dictionary and in my book anything uncorroborated is bullshit.  And even the apparently corroborated often isn't.