[a dense loner]

Casting blame is very constructive some times

[DAVETHOMAS90]

In all cases like this, I think it's good to look for the best way forward from where we are now.

My own opinion is that there isn't sufficient dialogue and consultation, opinion gathering etc beforehand. That is why I started this thread. But when it's clear that an opportunity for better communication exists, we should do what we can to encourage that. If we don't, we are just as culpable as anyone, if things don't turn out the way we would like them to.

I find the work up on Derwent quite appalling. No dialogue changes that, but I'd rather we have someone to discuss this with, moving forward, as is clearly the case. I will speak with Moors for the Future and the Peak Park, to find the best point of contact/email address for people to use to express their views more directly, although they're aware of this thread. Maybe someone else can post it, if they have that information.

Some other notes.

As Matt from MftF and Mike from the Peak Park pointed out, this work has not been completed yet - yes, as referenced on the sign. I didn't want to highlight that fact unnecessarily, as I felt it could potentially place undue emphasis on only the visual impact, which is something that will undoubtedly improve over time.

What I find distressing is the intrusion, and the way the track has been bulldozed through without being adequately sympathetic to what was there before - which I feel has been ripped up and lost.

Trying to make the most of what opportunity there is to be heard, will be a good way to help influence how things are done in the future. I think that is a good thing.

Regarding the Cutthroat B'way, it sounds as though there may be a public meeting beforehand, although this is yet to be confirmed. Again, I'm sure that requests to the Peak Park to that effect would help.

It is clear that there is ongoing discussion between the contractor, Moors for the Future and the Peak Park. I think it would be unreasonable to prejudge the outcome of those discussions, but it was clear from the comments of Mike Rhodes and Matt Scott-Campbell that they are as concerned as anyone about the end result.

Personally, I'm aware of course, that there's a degree to which opinion will not be shared about what work is really necessary, what isn't, and how it is implemented. To some extent, we have to place the responsibility for that judgement in the hands of someone, and bring things to their attention when we feel mistakes have been made. Which is what we're doing.

We can't put the rocks back, but this is the role of dialogue in all these things.

DT

[tomtom]

Casting blame is very constructive some times

It's all Denses fault. He did it!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I would like to distance myself from some of the comments in the last post.

In particular, the reference to "culprits".

Dave T.

 We didn't bump into four holograms up there, they're real people being paid a salary to protect the moorlands. They're responsible for their actions, and they were ashamed of the result, as they should be. Culprits is not too strong a word to use. You don't 'give opportunities for dialogue and consultation' after the event, what possible sense does that make? I would certainly be hoping for a chance for dialogue & consultation regarding their plans for the rest of the track, I can't see any reference to such "D&C" proposals regarding those plans on their site.

At this stage I'd say that casting blame is not constructive. I'd suggest focussing on how to prevent this work from continuing and for the damage (these new paths) to be made good....

 This is an open forum and as Dave said in a previous post, the 'Moors for the Future' people are reading this input, so inasmuch as there has been no consultation so far, they'll be able to get the tenor of my feelings at least!

Err, yes, I think they might! What sort of rope do you like to use? 

I didn't have an opportunity for a lengthier response earlier, although my earlier comment stands.

By the way, I hate the flag stones, always have, but to some extent go with the reasoning behind them being used.

[Little Weed]

Piano wire: filmed and shown to the other ranks to 'discourage les autres'!

[Little Weed]

Piano wire: filmed and shown to the other ranks to 'discourage les autres'!

 That's a mixed up reference to the aftermath of the Stauffenberg plot and the general's comment in Kubrick's 'Paths of Glory' Dave, to be fartily pretentious!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Piano wire: filmed and shown to the other ranks to 'discourage les autres'!

L'Autre Toit?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Contact information for the Peak District National Park:

01629 816200

customer.service@peakdistrict.gov.uk

http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/

Why not go online, and give your opinion?

These are general contact details from the website.

[lagerstarfish]

new footpath work in progress

(from Grimer's Twatter)

[DAVETHOMAS90]

 Using locally sourced materials too! Very Sympathetic.

Great, great effort from Grimer to remove that trash.

Serious waddage!!

[slackline]

Great, great effort from Grimer to remove that trash.

Are you sure he's removing it? 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

[quote apads=slackline link=topic=25722.msg487717#msg487717 date=1431862600]

Great, great effort from Grimer to remove that trash.

Are you sure he's removing it? 
[/quote]

Yep, couldn't fit all the pads in.

[blackhole]

More info on Derwent Motorway and what might happen next....

I went to a meeting of the Local Access Forum (Peak Park committee) yesterday. Attended by representatives of Peak Park, Derbyshire County Council, BMC and landowner. Not present - Natural England, Moors for Future or contractor (these designed, managed and did work on the ground).

The path was built with public money.

I tried to represent the range and depth of views expressed on this forum - not just my own views. Everyone was blaming the contractor and by implication, the lack of supervision/management. But this didn't answer some fundamental questions about whether a scheme of this size was appropriate at all. The work is not finished and there is an opportunity to ask/tell the contractor what to do when work resumes. Already heard a suggestion about replacing, right way up, boulders that had been removed by the JCB.   

The BMC have been very quiet on this whole matter. I would have hoped to see them being very loud in saying this has been a cock up in all sorts of ways and what can be done prevent it happening again. Certainly the BMC is best placed to be informed about any future schemes and publicise and enable consultation. If you agree with this you need to let them know what you think.

Re: second part of work - on bridleway from cut throat bridge. I stated several times that I thought there should be an open public meeting - this is a possibility but the downside is meetings can get taken over by a few people who shout loudest. I will push for a public meeting, but also a meeting of "representatives" eg mountain bikers, horse riders etc. And an opportunity for people to comment online - plans/ photos etc should be posted on Derbyshire county council website. The timetable for this is not soon - will be the autumn at earliest I expect.

Finally I did reflect the views about possible wheelchair access to derwent edge. This and other potential user access (bikes etc) did not feature at all in the planning. What we are left with is a poorly constructed eyesore of a path which is over engineered for walkers but unavailable and inappropriately engineered for other users.

I'll try to reflect all comments on this forum for future meetings. But if you really want something to happen then contact the Peak Park/ Derbyshire County Council or BMC. You can do this direct or via me - just message me. Bob Berzins

[Johnny Brown]

Henry was at the meeting wasn't he? I would tend to defer to his judgement as to whether the BMC should make a public fuss about it. Did you discuss it with him?

[blackhole]

JB - I think its best for others to comment on how they might like the BMC to be involved or not. I'm just reporting that in my opinion the BMC has been quiet (officially) on this. The BMC does get deeply involved in a wide range of environmental stuff in the peak. There are calls on this thread for "consultation", surely the BMC is best placed to provide this so climbers can have their say? I didn't discuss it directly with Henry at the meeting but am happy to do so.

Further info about the technique used to build the path - it's called substrate reversal and seems to be widely used/promoted by Moors for the Future

http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/substrate-reversal

My monitor won't show the wording on the insert, but it clearly states that a large excavator needs to be used. Anybody know how to get more info on this technique? Bob

[cofe]

Further info about the technique used to build the path - it's called substrate reversal and seems to be widely used/promoted by Moors for the Future

http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/substrate-reversal

My monitor won't show the wording on the insert, but it clearly states that a large excavator needs to be used. Anybody know how to get more info on this technique? Bob

[cofe]

Incidentally, I liked this bit on the main page Bob linked to:

This technique is relatively cheap

After all, it's only a national park, and pennies make pounds!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Thanks for the update Bob,

Some thought is required on how to make the most effective protest, while keeping the Peak Park firmly on our side.

I'd spoken to Mike Rhodes about the possibility of climbers (and runners) working directly with the Peak Park on future projects, on a volunteer basis. Would others be interested? Direct involvement may be the most effective way to influence things in the future.

I also mentioned the unilateral efforts made by climbers to keep the crag environment clean - Grimer's installation of the new shower block at Stanage notwithstanding. 

Looking to the BMC as the voice of climbers will, I feel, be far less effective than personal efforts and communication directly with the Peak Park and/or Moors ft Future.

As Bob said, if you haven't done so already, contact them directly!

It's worth considering carefully the degree of abuse that people receive however, when things go wrong. Keeping that to a minimum will surely help. We're all stakeholders, and creating unnecessary division will be counter productive.

From the dialogue I've had with them, I understand that comment made directly to Mike Rhodes at the Peak Park, or Matthew Scott-Campbell at Moors for the Future is the best line for communication. Their direct contact details were given to me when I called the head office. I'll check to see if it's OK to post here, but again, via head office is easy enough.

It's also worth considering, as a governmental body, just how much or little consultation PP/MftF are obliged to undertake with groups such as climbers, runners etc.
If we want to be able to influence how future work is implemented, then we've got to do what we can to work together.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Quick update.

There was a meeting up at Derwent/Cutthroat yesterday, to gather views, discuss ways forward etc. Mike from the Peak Park, Matt and Jamie from Moors ft Future, James from Peak District MTB, Henry from the BMC, Mike from SCAM (Campaign for Access), Bob Berzins and myself.
I'll provide more info later.

What I can say now though, is that the meeting was very much one of shared opinion, with the focus entirely on how to improve things moving forward.

The greatest reassurance - in my opinion - has come from the openness of Mike Rhodes from the Peak Park, and Matt Scott-Campbell from Moors for the Future. In particular, Mike's own contact details are available from the Peak Park website. They are far more approachable than I think people assume.

Even those who've expressed the strongest views on this thread would have been reassured by what was said and discussed - though that does nothing to mitigate the impact of the awful work done up there. A view shared by all present.

If it's possible, I'd like to gather some thoughts from people, about ways of improving ongoing collaboration and dialogue with the Peak Park. There already seems to be greater dialogue between the mountain bike groups and the PDNP. I may be wrong! II'm talking about opening channels of communication that are not merely about access issues or complaints. I don't want to offend any of the many people who have already put a tremendous amount of effort into trying to achieve this sort of thing already. Thoughts and ideas..?

Regarding the Cutthroat Bridleway, this appears to be on hold at the moment. Again, more info later.



More to follow.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I saw this beautiful painting of the Coach and Horses, up at Derwent, on the way back home tonight. I think it captures some of the magic and atmosphere which felt destroyed and cut through by the new track:



Painting from the website of the artist Juliet Forrest, on show at The Bessemer gallery, Ecclesall Road, Sheffield.

I was wondering if anyone else had been out over Derwent recently, and had anything to report? I'll try to get some feedback on any further developments up there in the new year.

Happy Christmas, folks 


P.S. http://www.jjjartwork.com/#!the-coach-and-horses/c1uak

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I reported a while ago, that I'd update with news of future developments and when consultation was planned regarding future works.

I've received the following email from Bob Berzins, which I've agreed to post here:


"Mike/Dave

As discussed in today's LAF, there is an ongoing archaeological survey on
the Cut Throat Bridge bridleway leading up to derwent edge due to complete
at end of July.

Following that there will be specifications drawn up for the bridleway
repair.

Dave - would you like to comment and publicise the consultation amongst
the climbers and followers of UK Bouldering and others?

Cheers, Bob."


I've been up over Derwent a couple of times recently, and it seems there has been little or no remedial work carried out, in an attempt to improve how things were left. It may be that that is the best option, but I'll try to seek further clarification on that from Mike Rhodes.

Hopefully other people will want to get involved, and recognise the importance of this area, and the relevance to management of other areas in the Peak. I think it would be good for more of us to get involved with discussion, as opposed to just moaning when things go wrong.    We've got a lot to contribute here, given the opportunity.

Thanks Bob.

Dave.

[cofe]

Went up yesterday afternoon, first time this year. A few observations:

- it's still visible from space.
- the veg surrounding it, e.g. near Coach and Horses, is growing back on either side of the path (which is visible from space) – maybe a good thing?
- given they've built a two-metre wide (for much of its length), all-weather, armoured trail, shouldn't it be upgraded to permissive bridleway status?
- it's still visible from space.
- nervous about the imminent Cutthroat works.

Nice day for a walk, anyway.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Good work for the update Cofe.

"Still visible from space" - yes, but which universe?!

I think it looks worse, if anything.

I spoke with Mike Rhodes from the Peak Park recently, and there will be a consultation about Cutthroat imminently, though slightly limited in number. It sounds as though there will be strong representation from different user groups.

I wouldn't want to say too much ahead of the meeting, but it sounds very much as though a different contractor will be used.

There are also difficulties with consultation between the different parties, prior to works going ahead, and I'm sure there will be some strong views about that. i.e. it's not as if it's solely the Peak Park who give the go ahead with certain proposals.

I think Mike Rhodes is especially committed to trying to find a good solution between land owners, Natural England, user groups etc. He also seems pretty gutted about the mess up over Derwent.

I guess we've got to find a way of trying to get our own voices heard, in a way that influences how things are done but currently, there are limits, and the PP can't act beyond their jurisdiction - though of course, we go to them when things go wrong. I think they're probably our best ally in trying to improve things.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of discussions.

Again, nice work on the update Cofe. It's still a proper mess, isn't it 

[cofe]

Oh yeah, the path looks bloody awful, but it was just an observation about the stuff growing back to the sides.

[T_B]

I don't have a problem with it. I've probably run up on the Derwent Edges more than half a dozen times this year. It's all weather and I for one will be enjoying it with a headtorch through the depths of winter. I can't say that for most of Kinder.