[Michael1991]

Hi

Me and my business partner are really wanting to open up a climbing wall for our local community up here in the north east of England as we have to travel over 10 miles for our nearest wall.
We are at the market research stage now and just wanted to get some feedback from you guys, so if you could leave a comment that would be awesome.

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
how many times a week do you climb?

any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

[slackline]

any suggestions

Use Google Forms to design a survey covering this and more questions.  Its a lot easier to then summarise and make sense of the responses than trawling threw posts here.

[Sloper]

I've no idea about Google forms, I suppose they're some horrid lefty thing 

But I'd say ignoring the general market research

1. bouldering walls are a lot faster and cheaper to build (and probably cheaper to insure)
2. bouldering walls can accommodate a >n of paying punters per square foot of floor space,
3. use good holds, good setters and change problems say every 6 weeks.
4. grade everything 4+
5. make use of your slack times for mums & dads climbing and creche, school groups and so on, have a good cafe (lots of profit opportunities)
6. be realistic about the start up costs.

[tim palmer]

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
depends how good the wall is
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No, but if I am in an area for reasons other than climbing I might make an effort to go to a wall if I have heard it is particularly good (well set problems is the most important thing)
how many times a week do you climb?
indoors twice, outdoors once-twice
any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

From a customers point of view I think the most important thing, and I am kind of paraphrasing Sloper here, is make the wall as nice a place to be as possible (nice cafe, reasonably warm in areas, carpeted matting), that way non-climbers will be attracted in and you will generate new, loyal punters which I imagine is how you will have a viable long term proposition.

Obviously well set problems, regularly changed is essential for regular climbers, I would also suggest making the wall predominantly steep as a nice steep wall is better for training plus your occasional punter will enjoy it from the fitness point of view, but I am might be in the minority there.   

[tomtom]

If he's not already messaged you - have a word/dm with oldmanmatt - as he did just this a couple of years back.. I suspect he has a load of really useful advice..

[Sloper]

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
depends how good the wall is
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No, but if I am in an area for reasons other than climbing I might make an effort to go to a wall if I have heard it is particularly good (well set problems is the most important thing)
how many times a week do you climb?
indoors twice, outdoors once-twice
any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

From a customers point of view I think the most important thing, and I am kind of paraphrasing Sloper here, is make the wall as nice a place to be as possible (nice cafe, reasonably warm in areas, carpeted matting), that way non-climbers will be attracted in and you will generate new, loyal punters which I imagine is how you will have a viable long term proposition.

Obviously well set problems, regularly changed is essential for regular climbers, I would also suggest making the wall predominantly steep as a nice steep wall is better for training plus your occasional punter will enjoy it from the fitness point of view, but I am might be in the minority there.

Steep isn't very good for groups and vertical / blans are really good for technical problems

[Will Hunt]

Look into what recently happened to The Barn in Crossflatts and make sure you understand the limitations of your lease.

[Oldmanmatt]

I've no idea about Google forms, I suppose they're some horrid lefty thing 

But I'd say ignoring the general market research

1. bouldering walls are a lot faster and cheaper to build (and probably cheaper to insure)
2. bouldering walls can accommodate a >n of paying punters per square foot of floor space,
3. use good holds, good setters and change problems say every 6 weeks.
4. grade everything 4+
5. make use of your slack times for mums & dads climbing and creche, school groups and so on, have a good cafe (lots of profit opportunities)
6. be realistic about the start up costs.

Unfortunately, insuring a Bouldering wall is not cheaper. It tends to be pretty similar. Statistically, you get more injuries at a bouldering wall.
Check out the BMC wall managers guide for those stats.

Slopers synopsis is not far off the mark.

We're now entering our third year in Purgatory...

PM me for anything specific and I'll let you know.

[Sloper]

I'd suggest that the injuries at bouldering walls, if more frequent are much smaller than lead walls are less serious?

In terms of indemnity insurance, I'm responsible for our indemnity insurance (we pay hundreds of k per year) engagement in the right way with the right broker can save you 20-40%, the mutuals are often very poor value and the other thing to consider is who's your claims handler: you don't want someone who pays out because 'its cheaper than fighting' as this will ass fuck you and your renewal premium.

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh yeah, the 10 mile distance is not great.

Unless you are in a large city and you have enough clientele to justify/support multiple walls and even then we're starting to see walls failing.

Remember, a whole bunch of potential customers will probably be just as close to the other wall as they are to you.
We have certainly had, umm, issues(?), with certain other walls who are considerably more than 10 miles away and way over 45 mins drive (without traffic).

In truth, though, we took no business away from other walls. We developed our own community.

We do it all for climbers, but you will need the schools/scout groups/Navigators et al.

And birthday parties.

You learn to fix that smile.


Sometimes it really hurts.

[sjw]

Out of interest, where in the North East? We regularly travel 35 miles to a climbing wall even though there are a few within a 10 mile radius, simply because it's very good. Personally I'd rather sit in a car for 45 mins to climb on well set problems with a good variety of holds in a nice environment (+good coffee) than, well, the alternatives.

[Michael1991]

Cheers for the feedback people, we are focusing on bouldering, and ill definitely look into getting a proper questionnaire together.

sjw - we are looking to try and open it at a local town near where i live called Peterlee, but at the moment we dont have a definite site.

Ill keep people up to date thanks again, and Oldmanmatt i think we will have a couple of questions invading your Pm box over the week if that's cool

[abarro81]

How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
15min drive, but then I live in Sheffield
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No. I would climb at different walls only if I were somewhere for another reason (e.g. work, seeing family) and it fitted in well.
how many times a week do you climb?
5. Usually 2 out 3 in.

[sjw]

sjw - we are looking to try and open it at a local town near where i live called Peterlee, but at the moment we dont have a definite site.

Hope it works out for you, I'm in Teesside so I'd be interested in developments.

[tim palmer]

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
depends how good the wall is
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No, but if I am in an area for reasons other than climbing I might make an effort to go to a wall if I have heard it is particularly good (well set problems is the most important thing)
how many times a week do you climb?
indoors twice, outdoors once-twice
any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

From a customers point of view I think the most important thing, and I am kind of paraphrasing Sloper here, is make the wall as nice a place to be as possible (nice cafe, reasonably warm in areas, carpeted matting), that way non-climbers will be attracted in and you will generate new, loyal punters which I imagine is how you will have a viable long term proposition.

Obviously well set problems, regularly changed is essential for regular climbers, I would also suggest making the wall predominantly steep as a nice steep wall is better for training plus your occasional punter will enjoy it from the fitness point of view, but I am might be in the minority there.

Steep isn't very good for groups and vertical / blans are really good for technical problems

I am aware of why climbing walls might have slabs in them but I don't think the kind of technique developed by slab climbing indoors is useful and from the walls I frequent slabs are the least climbed on walls.  I am referring only to bouldering to walls here.

I disagree steep bouldering walls are not good for groups, most of the groups (adults and kids) I see at walls seem to prefer climbing on the steep walls.

I am not saying I think there is no place for slabs but, as an example off the top of my head, having a huge central area of the wall being occupied by off vertical climbing is not a good thing.

[psychomansam]

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
depends how good the wall is
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No, but if I am in an area for reasons other than climbing I might make an effort to go to a wall if I have heard it is particularly good (well set problems is the most important thing)
how many times a week do you climb?
indoors twice, outdoors once-twice
any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

From a customers point of view I think the most important thing, and I am kind of paraphrasing Sloper here, is make the wall as nice a place to be as possible (nice cafe, reasonably warm in areas, carpeted matting), that way non-climbers will be attracted in and you will generate new, loyal punters which I imagine is how you will have a viable long term proposition.

Obviously well set problems, regularly changed is essential for regular climbers, I would also suggest making the wall predominantly steep as a nice steep wall is better for training plus your occasional punter will enjoy it from the fitness point of view, but I am might be in the minority there.

Steep isn't very good for groups and vertical / blans are really good for technical problems

I am aware of why climbing walls might have slabs in them but I don't think the kind of technique developed by slab climbing indoors is useful and from the walls I frequent slabs are the least climbed on walls.  I am referring only to bouldering to walls here.

I disagree steep bouldering walls are not good for groups, most of the groups (adults and kids) I see at walls seem to prefer climbing on the steep walls.

I am not saying I think there is no place for slabs but, as an example off the top of my head, having a huge central area of the wall being occupied by off vertical climbing is not a good thing.

I'm pretty sure the main slab is the most used bit of the Works by both average punters and by groups. You frequently can't even get on it.

[tim palmer]

Just a few things we would like to know;
How far would you travel to try out a new wall ?
depends how good the wall is
Do you go on trips around the country trying out different places?
No, but if I am in an area for reasons other than climbing I might make an effort to go to a wall if I have heard it is particularly good (well set problems is the most important thing)
how many times a week do you climb?
indoors twice, outdoors once-twice
any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated, we really want to make this happen, thanks for reading  

From a customers point of view I think the most important thing, and I am kind of paraphrasing Sloper here, is make the wall as nice a place to be as possible (nice cafe, reasonably warm in areas, carpeted matting), that way non-climbers will be attracted in and you will generate new, loyal punters which I imagine is how you will have a viable long term proposition.

Obviously well set problems, regularly changed is essential for regular climbers, I would also suggest making the wall predominantly steep as a nice steep wall is better for training plus your occasional punter will enjoy it from the fitness point of view, but I am might be in the minority there.

Steep isn't very good for groups and vertical / blans are really good for technical problems

I am aware of why climbing walls might have slabs in them but I don't think the kind of technique developed by slab climbing indoors is useful and from the walls I frequent slabs are the least climbed on walls.  I am referring only to bouldering to walls here.

I disagree steep bouldering walls are not good for groups, most of the groups (adults and kids) I see at walls seem to prefer climbing on the steep walls.

I am not saying I think there is no place for slabs but, as an example off the top of my head, having a huge central area of the wall being occupied by off vertical climbing is not a good thing.

I'm pretty sure the main slab is the most used bit of the Works by both average punters and by groups. You frequently can't even get on it.

I was not thinking of the works actually but I could see why you would think that

[webbo]

I wonder whether Peterlee needs a bouldering centre when Durham is only 14 miles away or is more a case of "let's open a climbing wall that looks a cool way of making a living"

[benj_d]

Peterlee isn't exactly an accessible place. Chester le street would be great, right on the a1. Also, where I live 

I guess what people have already said is good advice, for me bouldering works best for indoors, need good setters, regular changing, good other facilities such as a quality cafe, climbing space needs to be big enough and angles to vary a lot.

I guess personally I would travel up to 15 miles if it's good. I regularly used climb North East which sadly seems to have come to an end. I use climb newcastle a fair bit. Sometimes durham climbing centre but I think it could be better. Never really climb at either of the sunderland walls, byker church wall or Newton aycliffe.

[Sasquatch]

RE: Slab vs. steep. 

Having gone through periods of both, it depnds on the route setting.  Generally I find people follow quality, and if the steep problems are quality, they'll get traffic, if the slabs are quality, they'll get traffic. 

Speaking of setting, quality of setting and setting management would be the #1 thing that makes me stick with a gym/be motivated to go/etc. 

[a dense loner]

I would be willing to travel a minutes walk as long as I could drive there

[sammo]

Without wanting to put you off, I'd say Northeast England is one of the few areas in the UK that's approaching saturation point as far as indoor walls are concerned. I know of at least one excellent facility in the area that's already struggling due to lack of custom.

I haven't lived in the area for years, but if you're based in Peterlee I reckon the following are all within a ~20 mile radius:

• Climb Newcastle
• The Newcastle Climbing Centre
• The Berghaus Wall (Newcastle)
• The Sunderland Wall
• The Sunderland Climbing Centre
• The Durham Climbing Centre
• Climb North East (Ferryhill)
• Rock Antics (Newton Aycliffe)
• The Darlington Dolphin Centre ( )

That's a lot of competition (but best of luck if you do decide to go for it).

Northeast Scotland, on the other hand...

[Oldmanmatt]

Northeast Scotland, on the other hand...

Both the residents of that region said they'd rather climb outdoors, but one of the sheep seemed keen...

[sammo]

Both the residents of that region said they'd rather climb outdoors, but one of the sheep seemed keen...

  Point taken!

But Aberdeen has a long tradition of climbing, a population of ~220,000 and only 1 "proper" wall (which is good, but has limited bouldering). The nearest alternatives are Dundee (~1 hr), Inverness (2+ hrs) and I reckon the nearest decent bouldering wall is TCA in Glasgow (~3 hrs).

Aberdeen is the only wall I've seen recently operating a one-in-one-out system with people queuing in reception to get in. Having said that, warehouse space is probably prohibitively expensive due to the oil industry, so perhaps still not a great idea.

No shortage of keen "sheep" though!

[ducko]

I travel further than I have to, to climb indoors. The reasons are:
Good problems
Good atmosphere
Good variety in grades/style of problem

Get those two right and imo you'll do well