[rodma]

Lots of conflicting answers there. I am aware that dips would be good as an overall shoulder stability thing to prevent injury but in 30 years of climbing and training a lot i have never had any problems with shoulders or elbows. My posture isnt great but its not that bad really.

I am more interested in whether my total inability to do dips is holding back my climbing. The mantling thing isn't an issue, i think thats all technique, but my lock of strength is and wondering whether the dips thing is connected.

Looking at my climbing now and in the past i have always been poor at press moves and really deep locks. I could do one armers but, unlike most, found the top of the movement (getting my chin over my hand) much harder than the lower (straight arm- hand to forehead height). Poor on campus board (1.4.7 occasionally) and found no difference in performance between the biggest and smallest rungs.

As we never really did any rings or core stuff years ago its only now i have become aware how utterly shit I am at dips and was wondering if there is a connection.

I'm also poor at the top part of a one armer, but that's just because I'm weak through that part of the movement. Dips hit way beyond that part of the movement so don't really help with that.

I find Dips pretty easy though, but I have trex arms.

[gme]

 No excuse for me on arm length as I have a negative 2 inch ape index. So I should have an advantage.

[Sasquatch]

I feel like they are important, and are much more climbing related than pressups.  When you do a deep lock (hand below shoulder) you engage the tricep extensively to continue that push.  Dips are perfect for this.  I know that I do this type of movement quite often when climbing.

This seems the only comment that suggests a link. Are they a part of your training? Do you just do standard dips or other things to work the same muscles.

Yes-Sometimes.  As an add-on at the end of the workouts during my 4 week FB and 4 week campus cycle, I do additional strength training. Part of my decision on what strength training I'll be doing is related to how strong I am at different things, so I do some self testing every 8 weeks or so.  Dips is one of the self tests My strength test for dips is 5 weighted dips w 45lbs.   If I can't do this, then I'll add in weighted dips to one of the next two strength cycles.  A caveat is that I also test Bench press, and if that's too weak (5x1.25BW), then I do Bench first and re-test the dips after. 

My self tests are not all directly related to climbing.  They're what I've found keeps my body overall strong enough to function how and when I want it to.  I have a 15 year old special needs daughter, and I have to be able to lift/carry/manhandle her when needed, so I can't just stay in "climbing" shape.  I need a bit more.   

FYI - the self tests are:
Deadlift - 3x2xBW
Squat - 5x1.5BW
Bench Press - 5x1.25xBW
Dips - 5xBW+25%
Pullups - 5xBW+25%
Dragon Flags - 3
Run - 1 mile in 7min
Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.

[fatdoc]

Holy shit.

 

[webbo]

 I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.

[duncan]

Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).

Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.

Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.

[Rocksteady]

I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.

I'd have thought that a tricep pushdown exercise is closer to the motion of most mantling than dips? You could do a close grip lat pulldown into a tricep press for an approximation of a top out.

[Oldmanmatt]

Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).

Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.

Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.

The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....

[duncan]

The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....

I understand improving proprioception (joint and body position sense) is enormously beneficial but I question that introducing 'external' instability is the best way to do this for rock climbers. Increasing external instability is clearly appropriate for people running around a muddy rugby pitch: the playing surface is unpredictable and so are the opposition! Some climbing coaches and therapists are not thinking very deeply about what happens in climbing and just co-opting what other sportspeople do. 

Climbers might achieve more proprioceptive improvement by increasing 'internal' instability: by moving more, in different ways, the more weird and wonderful the better! Do hand-stands rather than use a balance ball. Perhaps there is something in all this Dawes parkour udini nonsense?

Another potentially interesting approach is introducing mental distraction (e.g. fear) in a graduated fashion. It's clear that anxiety influences proprioception, not that climber should need academic evidence for this. This doesn't seem to be done, yet, in a controlled fashion in climbing other than in falls training.

[Oldmanmatt]

Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).

Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.

Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.

The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....


Edit

Sorry, that was needlessly brief.

The probability of a slip, makes climbing inherently unstable.
Granted, the rock doesn't (hopefully) move, but you slip, miss step, ping off, lunge and miss a hold, etc etc etc.

Doing pull ups, or dips, or any gym based exercise on ridged equipment, doesn't really compare and tends to exercise specific muscles (usually the superficial "bulging" muscles). Introducing instability, helps to work the deeper "stabilising" muscles etc that are less engaged in ridged exercises (that essential occur in a single plane).

Yes, Rodma, I know I am oversimplifying. I'm trying to distill it to a straightforward "unstable exercises are important for climbing, just as they are for any other sport".

Google "Proprioception" and then spend some time looking at anatomical drawings of the shoulders and arms (within the context of this thread) and note the arrangement of those smaller muscles under the ones that poke through your skin, see how they stabilise the joints. Then imagine how they are engaged during, say, a dip on bars and then one on rings.
I'm an Engineer, so I tend to view it as a mechanical linkage, you know, "pull lever A up and gear X rotates clockwise", type reasoning.

Then Google some images of things like Rotator cuff injuries and with a little imagination, you should be able to see how they happen and why training/exercising stability might be important.

Personally (and I mean as an opinion, not a statement of fact), I think talk of these types of exercise as being "not climbing specific" are erroneous, in as much as injury prevention should be the core around which training should be grown.

Being able to do a one arm, pinky mono, on the BM 45*, wearing a 50kg weight vest; will not improve your climbing one Jot if you tear your rotator cuff and spend a year injured.

Such training does not seriously or deleteriously, increase muscle mass or body weight (we're not building Quads the size of buses, or Triceps like Arnie Sweatinickers).
It may, however, drastically reduce your chances of sitting out the season, screaming "ow, ow, fucking ow,!" Every time you reach for your coffee.

Take a look at the Meta study I linked to in the stretching thread (Slackers put it in the wiki too), regarding Strength training and Proprioception exercises for injury prevention.

[Oldmanmatt]

That wasn't aimed at you Duncan, you posted while I was typing...

Just general.

[rodma]

I'm well aware of the anatomy of the shoulders Matt

There is a tendency to just tense up everything to resist the wobble effect, unless you are really diligent about which muscle groups you are engaging and it is exceptionally easy to cheat stability by tensing the same old large superficial muscles, like the pecs and upper traps.

I genuinely have nothing else to add to this topic, other than reiterating what I've already written, so her i go one last time. I'm not saying that dips are good or bad, but it is how you perform these exercises that matters, if and it's a big if, you are expecting them to work specific muscle groups.

If you just want to beast yourself then you can forgo all form, wobble the fuck around, get amazing doms and feel nice and broken, which is easy to do at home, with rings or similar.

[Oldmanmatt]

It is so hard to write anything on here without appearing to be challenging or calling someone out...

I really only aimed the apology for over simplification at you Rodma, not the rest.

One post.

Two apologies.


Foot.

In.

Mouth.

[webbo]

I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.

I'd have thought that a tricep pushdown exercise is closer to the motion of most mantling than dips? You could do a close grip lat pulldown into a tricep press for an approximation of a top out.

Once you get to body weight it hard to be stable and if you use a lat machine which has the thing to wedge you in place. You are sat down.
For specific mantling training I used to tie a piece of 2 x 4 to the dipping bars. Hang beneath it and press up in to a mantle. Mind despite all this I was still shit due to my lack of hip flexablity but on occasion I could straight arm with one arm and lift my foot up with the other

[rodma]

It is so hard to write anything on here without appearing to be challenging or calling someone out...

I really only aimed the apology for over simplification at you Rodma, not the rest.

One post.

Two apologies.


Foot.

In.

Mouth.

no need to apologise at all, on reread the way i have written the first sentence in my post sounds a pretty harsh response and it wasn't intended to be. now if only there was some easy way of graphically illustrating my emotion, then i might come across a little bit less dickish, but not too much.

 

[Nibile]

I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.

I struggle to see a relation between dips and iron crosses.
Of course pecs and triceps are involved in an iron cross, but I think that the main effort is sustained by lats and shoulders, that are minimally, if at all, involved in dips.
What do you think Webbo?
Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?
Genuinely interested.
Must mount rings.

[rodma]

Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?

 i have seen people that are so tight, that they could lower into an iron cross because they couldn't physicall lower any further without rotating their upper arms, or tearing something, not that I'm saying that's what webbo did, he's probably a beast

I'd be ridiculously impressed by anyone that could extend their arms out to iron cross, or pull up into the position from below.

have seen people "holding" reverse levers on rings when really they are at the end of their range of motion.

[Oldmanmatt]

There is a tendency to just tense up everything to resist the wobble effect, unless you are really diligent about which muscle groups you are engaging and it is exceptionally easy to cheat stability by tensing the same old large superficial muscles, like the pecs and upper traps.
 

Actually, that's an interesting statement.
Leaving aside Iron crosses and levers (as I see your point about limits to range).

How would you specifically target a group?

Do you mean recruitment in the warm up phase?
Conscious relaxation of non-target groups?

Surely,  the targeted muscles will necessarily be engaged?

 And regarding the tightness etc. is that not simply a case of someone attempting an exercise for which they are inadequately conditioned?

For Example, no-one should be jumping straight onto the rings to do Dips, if they cannot manage one between two chairs and have not progressed through fixed parallel bars.

There should always be progression.

I hope I haven't suggested Dips as a Panacea, I see them as an important part of a wider programme (in the context of shoulders).

[rodma]

It's tricky isn't it.

You stay out with your feet on the ground to do assisted dips, but want to progress to footless because the exercise is feeling easier.
Hard top know whether you have learned to cheat,  or to use the correct muscles which have gotten stronger?

It's the same with weights and even with therabands though. You really need to train with someone so you can check each others form I think.

[webbo]

I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.

I struggle to see a relation between dips and iron crosses.
Of course pecs and triceps are involved in an iron cross, but I think that the main effort is sustained by lats and shoulders, that are minimally, if at all, involved in dips.
What do you think Webbo?
Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?
Genuinely interested.
Must mount rings.

I did pull myself off the floor between the luggage racks whilst being bored working as a bus condutor. Given this was in 1979 and my training was even more random than it is now and generally followed what was fashionable that week. I didn't have any structure to what I was doing other I'm not climbing or going to wall so it would be pullups, dips or weights. 

[Nibile]