[Sloper]

The Cartier shop was presumably Avenue George Vth or close by i.e. where there is monster cctv and there are always plenty of cops in the area, the 11th Ard is quite different; think Isligton vs Knighsbridge

[Oldmanmatt]

*Source disclaimer* I in no way, even slightly, support Fox or it's affiliates and would quite like to see them all forced to dress in drag and march in a Gay pride parade, carrying atheist banners and made to vote Democrat.

However, this clip to some degree addresses the problems faced by the policemen on duty  a Charles Hebdo that day (and some other recent events, elsewhere). Scenario 1, being the most revealing.
It also explains why defence in depth is so critical.
They almost certainly did not have time to raise an alarm, let alone a firearm and two armed officers are only a token deterrent and of little practical value.

Also, I think the principle difference between a robbery and this, is that the robbers (probably) did not intend to harm, but threaten harm with the aim of achieving an exchange. That has to be a slower process than this incident. The shooters intended only harm, knew where they were going and were willing/eager to kill anyone that got in their way.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/Clip/11014328/activist-critical-of-police-undergoes-use-of-force-scenarios#.VK4Ue2JL7Hk.facebook

[tomtom]

Eh up - some action happening now... car hijacking, car chase etc..

[fatneck]

Hostage taken... stand off...

[rginns]

Hostage taken... stand off...

Glad I'm not visiting a customer of mine about 500 yards away in Dammartin...
Scary stuff.

[lagerstarfish]

hopefully they'll be taken alive - I get the impression they're not the suicide types

the puppet masters are probably hoping for a couple of martyrs


( now the homepage says "Charlie Hebdo massacre by lagerstarfish")

[Nibile]

The aftermath of the massacre leaves me perplexed...
A very professional aggression that ends up in a chaotic escape, stealing cars, taking hostages...
Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of the conspiracies' theories, but in this case it does seem to me as if they've been "protected" and "instructed" very well for the assault, then left alone for the escape, in which they've resorted to usual non professional techniques. Maybe there really is a master of puppets that was hoping that they were/are killed.

[Wood FT]

I'm not sure how professional it was beyond the fact they could hold a gun correctly and knew the office address (they got it wrong twice). They didn't know what their 'targets' looked like as they called out for them by name before shooting them. Like most horrible incidents it is sometimes easier to understand and make sense of if we believe there are wider powers involved, see 9/11.

Most likely they've been to fight in Syria and thought themselves commandos.

I hope they are caught alive, they deserve intense boredom for the rest of their lives. 

[jwi]

The guy who drove the car they hi-jacked told french media that they behaved very relaxed. No running, no sweating, no raised voices, one guy just calmly said to him "we need your car" while pointing a machine-gun at him.

"Tu diras, c'est al-Qaida au Yemen"
L'homme braqué rue de Meaux à Paris, près de la porte de Pantin, a raconté à nos confrères d'Europe 1 comment les deux frères Kouachi l'ont abordé pour lui voler son véhicule.

"Le conducteur descend, armé d'un pistolet mitrailleur. J'ai su après que c'était une kalachnikov. Comme j'avais ma glace ouverte. Il me dit : "Descend de ta voiture, on a besoin de ta voiture." Je descend de ma voiture. À ce moment-là arrive une deuxième personne qui monte côté passager avec aussi un fusil avec une sorte de grenade au bout. Certainement un lance-grenades, quelque chose comme ça. Il s'installe à l'avant et moi, à ce moment-là, j'ai le réflexe d'ouvrir la porte arrière et de dire : "Je récupère mon chien." L'homme a pu s'enfuir, avec son chien, indemne.

Il décrit des personnes "très très calmes, très déterminées, très posées, très professionnelles, des commandos ! Il n'a jamais élevé la voix, ils n'ont jamais couru, ils n'ont jamais paru excités. Ils n'étaient pas transpirants. Rien de tout ça. Des gens en opération, qui ont donné l'impression d'être en opération. En partant, ils m'ont dit : "Si jamais, tu t'adresses... enfin, si les médias t'interrogent, tu diras : "C'est al-Qaida au Yémen"."

[tomtom]

Yup - see the clustering of the bullet holes on the French police car - these guys knew how to shoot. I suspect Matt might know more on their professionalism etc...

[Sloper]

Yes, pretty good grouping.

[fatneck]

Now hostages been taken and apparently being killed in Jewish Kosher supermarket in Eastern Paris...

[Wood FT]

The guy who drove the car they hi-jacked told french media that they behaved very relaxed. No running, no sweating, no raised voices, one guy just calmly said to him "we need your car" while pointing a machine-gun at him.

"Tu diras, c'est al-Qaida au Yemen"
L'homme braqué rue de Meaux à Paris, près de la porte de Pantin, a raconté à nos confrères d'Europe 1 comment les deux frères Kouachi l'ont abordé pour lui voler son véhicule.

"Le conducteur descend, armé d'un pistolet mitrailleur. J'ai su après que c'était une kalachnikov. Comme j'avais ma glace ouverte. Il me dit : "Descend de ta voiture, on a besoin de ta voiture." Je descend de ma voiture. À ce moment-là arrive une deuxième personne qui monte côté passager avec aussi un fusil avec une sorte de grenade au bout. Certainement un lance-grenades, quelque chose comme ça. Il s'installe à l'avant et moi, à ce moment-là, j'ai le réflexe d'ouvrir la porte arrière et de dire : "Je récupère mon chien." L'homme a pu s'enfuir, avec son chien, indemne.

Il décrit des personnes "très très calmes, très déterminées, très posées, très professionnelles, des commandos ! Il n'a jamais élevé la voix, ils n'ont jamais couru, ils n'ont jamais paru excités. Ils n'étaient pas transpirants. Rien de tout ça. Des gens en opération, qui ont donné l'impression d'être en opération. En partant, ils m'ont dit : "Si jamais, tu t'adresses... enfin, si les médias t'interrogent, tu diras : "C'est al-Qaida au Yémen"."

Okay, this I didn't know.

[rginns]

I'm loving the Darth Vader helmets the French police are wearing.

[tomtom]

Blimey - if you think Paris is bad - have a look at N. Nigeria (via Slackers twitter account)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30728158

[Oldmanmatt]

Yes, pretty good grouping.

Assuming the AK was set for a 3 round burst and the range was not great, then such grouping only indicates an ability to point.

They do seem to have resisted the urge to Rock and Roll (full automatic is something reserved for suppressing fire, rather than actually hitting things. The AK47 (or the Chinese type 56 knock off) was notorious for riding up and right on full auto. The media have named the weapons as AK47, but that seems to have become a generic term and they might be later (and better) AKMs).

Their overall coolness may speak of battle hardening, psychosis, or pharmacological suppression. Who knows at this stage.

As to how quickly they were identified.

I would suspect the DCRI have a list of "Persons of interest" and how to find them, at any given time of day. There is no way they could monitor that entire list 24/7, so when the shit hits the proverbial, it's the ones who can't be found immediately that bubble to the top of the list of suspects. Filter that by last known location (if their phones were switched off a day before, but close to the scene, then they become high confidence suspects, or they live in Nice, but their phone passed through Lyon and Le Mans before disappearing... you get the picture).

And so on.

Sucks though. There really is nothing that can be done to prevent it, not without serious erosion of civil liberties.

[tomtom]

Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/

[tomtom]

Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/

And now explosions from the other site.. wonder if the feds have gone in simultaneously (or as near as..)

[fried]

First seige, both brothers dead, hostage free, According to Sky news. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Oldmanmatt]

Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/

And now explosions from the other site.. wonder if the feds have gone in simultaneously (or as near as..)

That would seem to suggest some suspicion of co-ordination between the two groups of shooters. Probably best to assume that, in their shoes.

I wonder what else is happening.?

There must be an overwhelming fear amongst the commanders, that this is just the start. Are there other cells, completely independent of the the others, just waiting for the first team to play, get the security forces focus in one place...

Or is number two just a sick copy cat?

[dave]

For a while the BBC were reporting the second siege as being at a kosher bakery. So I did wonder if they would go in all buns glazing.

Sorry.

Anyway, looks like on the news that it's all over bar the shouting. Glad to see that it looks like, mainly, hostages have come out OK.

[Nibile]

It seems that the man who killed the policewoman yesterday and took the hostages in the kosher shop today knew the two brothers.
He reportedly asked for them to be freed when taking the hostages.
All three have been killed, appearingly.
Excellent way to never know the truth.

[petejh]

What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?

[Will Hunt]

Sucks though. There really is nothing that can be done to prevent it, not without serious erosion of civil liberties.

 

Terrible as it is, I would hate to see a knee jerk reaction to this in the form of a further encroachment on liberty.

[Nibile]

What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?

There's a lot to know: how they passed from idea to action, who gave them support, where they got trained and by who, how many like them there are still around, who gave them the AK47s, who paid for them, who is profiting from this, how they got back in France from Syria being unnoticed, why the French secret services ignored the warnings coming from Algerian services the day before the assault, etc. etc.
Briefly, what we're left with, after their death, is a partial truth that won't go much deeper than the mere facts. Had they remained alive, probably we could have known more.
In Italy we've had so many "misteries" buried in the graves of dead people, that I hate it when I feel that we're not going to be able to know as much as possible.
Just this.