[Paul B]

I've just returned from a short ski trip to St. Anton (for anyone in short driving distance of Manc aiport, Monarch + Austrian public transport works really well for not too many FAs, we left early AM and were skiing by early PM) which I enjoyed.

However, I've been going skiing since I was really young (with family and school), usually twice a year until recent years and resort skiing has started to feel a little tame / repetitive. Because of the aforementioned, a lot of that skiing has been on-piste or at best easily accessible couloirs / 'slack country' close to pisted / patrolled runs and powder experience has been highly limited (Utah being the main exception as well as an education).

How do you progress from one to the other? It's worth noting that in climbing, my knowledge of snow conditions or anything wintery is non existent (something I'd like to change for a few routes). Is it just a case of visiting somewhere more difficult with someone who is already competent?

I'm sure as ever UKB will be a pool of knowledge 

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Next time your in St Anton, save up and book on with these guys, 1 - 5 days.
http://www.pistetopowder.com/our-courses.php

I only did a couple of guided days with them but well worth it, not only do they know the best places (and least tracked out) they are highly knowledgeable. If you did a 5 day course you'd progress a lot.

[Jaspersharpe]

Never mind all that, what I want to know is how you manage to afford to be constantly on holiday you bastard P-Ben. 

[Paul B]

Never mind all that, what I want to know is how you manage to afford to be constantly on holiday you bastard P-Ben. 

I'm declining to answer this.

[T_B]

http://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/ski/offpiste.html

Next winter's programme will be published in May. This year we had Off Piste into weeks in Cham and 3 Valleys, but the programme changes every year.

[Muenchener]

Frankly I find the whole avalanche business terrifying. The level of real risk in rock climbing is, I think, very controllable with suitable experience and gear; whereas I totally lack the experience with backcountry snow and I have the impression that even if one has the experience, gear etc, the chance of being randomly wiped out are massively higher than they are on, say, Gogarth.

Nevertheless, snowboarding in powder is a whole lot of fun.

I'm in the fortunate position of having a few mates who are experienced ski tourers who I can go out with and have faith in their ability to keep the level of risk to a minimum. If you haven't, then you need to be extremely careful.

I can recommend Peter Bacher at Rock'n'Snow in Zillertal. Did a powder technique course with him in Mayrhofen a couple of years ago and found it excellent, even though I was by far the weakest in the group and totally wasted at the end.

[SA Chris]

If you want to venture off piste your options are starting from most risky to least risky;

1) Just do what looks good, and hope for the best, you only live once
2) Read some books / watch some DVDs, buy some kit and go for it. Lots of resorts have "off piste" guidebooks for suggested itineraries.
3) See if you can find a mate who is experienced enough and happy to take you out for a few tours.
4) Hire a guide and put your life into their hands
5) Go on a course and get some instruction and learn a lot of the useful stuff you need to know, then step out on your own.
6) Don't go off piste

[Paul B]

options 4 & 5 (as above), obviously, cost a lot of money?

[SA Chris]

Depends how you do it. Going to Alps to do is going to more money than Glenmore Lodge  or PYB for example.

http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/ski-touring-courses/

But whatever way its not cheap compared to doing nothing at all.

I did  this http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/cat-32-ski-touring/course-252-avalanche-navigation-for-skiers/

at GL earlier in the year and it was excellent.

[Paul B]

at GL earlier in the year and it was excellent.

Perhaps I'm a snob but I'm really sceptical of Scotland; my earliest memories of skiing involved being there and absolutely hating every minute of it, other Euro venues on the other hand were glorious...

I am relying on: inability to ride snow steep enough to slide, plus not going out much.

As you well know I'm fairly risk averse on the whole, I can't see this turning into a desire to do really outrageous things, simply something more challenging than the OP.

[Paul B]

I'm not sure but what I have noticed is there's a significant difference in my experience to how European and American/Ca resorts deal with trees.

A lot of St. Anton's supposedly harder marked routes were supposedly 'ski tracks', patrolled but not groomed. In reality they were often groomed and were just thinner than your average piste. The off-piste stuff was in severe need of extra snow (you'd have never guess that 20cm dropped just a day or so before we arrived).

[AndyR]

Slightly off-topic, but had a german friend visiting for a few days recently, specifically for backcountry ski-ing ... he was talking about how popular it has now become in Europe. Which is not surprising given: 1. you almost never see a glimpse of a ski resort in the cool-kids' ski and snowboard movies these days 2. the gear guys get to sell a whole lot more stuff 3. after spending time in untracked powder, a well-groomed ski resort seems about as exciting as a trip to a shopping mall. I have been wondering where this is all going, especially as I live done the road from one of the world's biggest resorts. Do resorts respond by grooming less terrain? ... but if they do, will on-piste risk rise unacceptably. Whistler has enough off-piste within the resort for people to die in-bounds ... for example, in a tree well earlier this year and from an avalanche a few years ago. Here in Squamish we have a gondola opening soon which has the overt aim of enabling backcountry access in winter ... there will be no "resort" up there, just a lodge. (Though it will make its big money from the tourist bus tours in summer.)

Read this week's Pique - interesting article/rant on the necessity to open up more terrain in the squampton/whistler area without the obligatory resort/lifestyle guff that is prevalent in whistler.

[SA Chris]

at GL earlier in the year and it was excellent.

Perhaps I'm a snob but I'm really sceptical of Scotland; my earliest memories of skiing involved being there and absolutely hating every minute of it, other Euro venues on the other hand were glorious...

So you want to do it cheap, but want fantastic snow as well? Maaaargret?

Snow has been great here the last few years, but the terrain will naver match the Alps. But I'm not suggesting you spend a week up here, you can easily fly, train or drive it up here two do a couple of one or two days courses where you feel you need to improve? Be that touring technique, or navigating in Avalanche terrain.

Then you don't need to waste time on a trip in Europe learning stuff.

A lot of Avalanche safety is now based on the widely accepted Werner Munter 3 x 3 Reduction Method , including this http://sais.gov.uk/be-avalanche-aware.asp It's worth reading up on this from hundreds of online resources, as well as using the "AviRisk" App to assist with your decision making.

Habrich, when we were in Whistler we did the free Avalanche Awareness course, on a crap weather day (I think it was a Saturday). We were the only people who turned up so we basically had a free instructor  / guide for the day. This was the same year of the aforementioned death, and he took us to the site of that avalanche and we had a look at what had happened, when and why.

[Johnny Brown]

At the risk of causing unlucky Alf further harm, after many ski trips to the Alps I would say the chance of you getting to stand at the top of a virgin slope worrying about avalanches is basically nil. In any decent alpine resort any safe terrain will be tracked out by 10am following a dump, which never happens on the one week every five years I'm there anyway. If you are prepared to hike you won't know where to go, so will need a guide anyway. 'Off piste' for the average punter means cutting between pistes on three-week old snow trying to find more than one turn between cutting across others tracks. Avalanche danger=nil. Watch out for cliffs, streams and trees though.

IMHO Scotland is far more dangerous for avalanches due to the wind moving the snow about, and constant temperature changes.

[SA Chris]

And the occasional downpour soaking the snowpack before freezing it solid!

[galpinos]

Like all things, experience comes with:

1. Time
2. Education
3. Close calls (aka "learning experiences")

So, how much of 1 do you have, how much are you willing to spend on 2 and how many of 3 are you willing to endure?

Personally, in your case I'd read up a lot, get a shovel, probe and transceiver and learn how to use them and get a guide for a couple of mornings next time you're out. Get the guide to teach you and explain their decisions, as well as showing you the local spots. If you're back in St Anton, Piste to Powder are an excellent organisation. I skied in Greenland with Graham and Franz and can highly recommend them (despite Graham being a Geordie).

Most of my knowledge has come from self-directed learning (there are a million and one resources out there to learn about snow), peer to peer teaching form more experienced friends, some very fortunate free teaching from guides and a lot of experience. Despite all this, I know I will still make mistakes, experts still do (see the guide and clients killed at the start of the season in St Anton) so i defiantly will. However, the rewards for me greatly out weight the risks in my eyes and skiing steep powder slopes is pure joy.

With the shovel, probe and transceiver, when I say learn how to use them I mean really learn how to use them. I've never been caught in an avalanche but have had to find someone. It's really stressful (pretty high up in the most stressful experiences in my life list), the clock is ticking and it's a lot harder than mincing around in the transceiver park. Climbing up and down a steep slope of avalanche debris is tiring; every minute counts so being able to search on automatic whilst also being confident that you know how to probe and the best way to shovel (this also makes a difference) really helps.

If you want, I can dig out some link to online resources and papers when I have a moment (i.e. not on a coffee break at work!)

Oh, and ignore JB, My wife and I have managed virgin powder on the last 4 trips (out of 5). This year we’re taking the 11 month old daughter so I’m having to reign back my ambitions!

[SA Chris]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Powderguide-Managing-Avalanche-Tobias-Kurzeder/dp/0972482733

Is IMO a really good book on the subject.

One of the things I learned in the course was to start seeing the mountain in traffic light colours as per the avalanche forecast, and choosing your runs accordingly, rather than just seeing "off piste = danger" for the entire mountain.

I've also managed to find amazing "side country" powder on just about every ski trip I've been on, even if it sometimes involves a 10 min walk up  to get over the back of a bowl or ridge line. It helps being able to get away from the more popular destination resorts.

And general concensus is do not trust the Snog (that's the Scandanavian O with a line through it) "Avalanche Buddy" in place of a transceiver. It's had warnings issued regards unreliability. Get a decent transceiver, the most up to date one you can afford. And always carry a decent shovel and probe, don't just carry a transceiver so you can be rescued if you get buried, but not have the tools to help someone else out if you need to.

[Fultonius]

options 4 & 5 (as above), obviously, cost a lot of money?

A 1 day group avalanche awareness course (with a certified ski guide) would be around €75 and that will make a massive difference. Terrain reading (where dodgy snow is likely to build, where the "terrain traps" are) how to ski safely in groups, how to react if someone is caught (group management, transceiver search, probing, digging etc.).

That said, backcountry skiing/snowboarding is definitely more dangerous than climbing. A guy I skied with twice early this season just died on Mont Buet due to taking a 600m slide down the North Face when a cornice collapsed. even though him and my friend Lorne were 5 metres back form the edge.

I am amazed every time I see another go-pro video of people in the backcountry with no equipment (and therefore no knowledge). That £300 would have been better spent on a transceiver, shovel and probe and another £70 for some basic knowledge is not a huge outlay.


Sorry for the facebook post but tracked != safe  :  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152004932425095&set=a.473599760094.255652.613425094&type=1&theater

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

+ 1 for powderguide, and for getting the proper kit (and knowing how to use it!)

[slackline]

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/vallee-blanche-crevasse-danger-rescue-video

[Paul B]

A 1 day group avalanche awareness course (with a certified ski guide) would be around €75 and that will make a massive difference. Terrain reading (where dodgy snow is likely to build, where the "terrain traps" are) how to ski safely in groups, how to react if someone is caught (group management, transceiver search, probing, digging etc.).

That said, backcountry skiing/snowboarding is definitely more dangerous than climbing. A guy I skied with twice early this season just died on Mont Buet due to taking a 600m slide down the North Face when a cornice collapsed. even though him and my friend Lorne were 5 metres back form the edge.

Thanks for all of the advice. The more I look into it the more horror stories I come across.

Two things I noticed with resort skiing (since it'd been a few years) was the prevalence of helmets (it seemed like it was now the exception TO be wearing one) and GoPros!

[SA Chris]

When I was working in Colorado I did a lot of tree skiing, where not wearing one is plain daft, verging on suicidal, and just got used to it. Now I feel naked (and cold headed!) without one. But yes, there has been a groundswell of helment use over the last 5 years or so. When you exampine the hazards it makes you wonder why it was ever the norm to go without one.

And go-pros do seem de rigeur, even in Scottish ski areas. Hopefully a lot of it is for personal record, or else there is some very very dull footage ciculating on the internet from folk who can barely link two turns. I guess the same can be said of my go-pro surfing footage!

[Muenchener]

+ 1 for powderguide, and for getting the proper kit (and knowing how to use it!)

Proper kit means a modern transciever and a metal shovel btw. Avalanche debris is often hard; I watched my son trying to dig in hard snow with a mate's plastic shovel the other day and it was an eye-opener. Not funny. At all. Metal shovel. Are we clear on this? Good.

[bigtuboflard]

The value of going on a proper backcountry course can't be underestimated. whilst doing guided off piste helps, from experience a good few guides are more interested in doing just that, i.e. guiding. mind you, i have used a few in the past who have also been really good at talking through local conditions and refreshing your memory on terrain traps and the like (one particularly good one was in Serre Chevalier but can't remember his name).

On a personal note there is nothing like practice and experience in terms of becoming familiar with off piste riding or skiing, the problem is finding enough time living in the UK. Even simple things like doing transceiver searches on the day you arrive in resort or as a refresher on an afternoon if you are feeling a bit spent. Better still, bury a transceiver in a pack with a beer or two and use at as a bit of a social amongst a few of you.

I can also recommend incredibly highly a course I went on in Canada with a bloke by the name of Steve Kjuit, who is the lead guide for Island Lake Lodge, so can't really come with better credentials than that. It was a three day classroom and on the hill course, so great mix of theory and field work, slope stability tests, route picking up as well as down, kit prep and maintenance, the full works. Just a bit of a long way to go and not sure he does the courses any more. That said, there has been a lot about the Avalanche Academy in Chamonix of late (http://www.avalancheacademy.com) who look like a good option nearer by.

[Paul B]

Are there any resorts where I'd likely to be able to do a back-country course whilst Nat can be getting (basic) tuition elsewhere?

I have the potential opportunity to do this soon (i.e. in the next month) but it'd need to cater to both our needs (and that's if we don't go climbing instead, $$$ certainly suggests that's what we SHOULD do).

Thanks etc.