[Oldmanmatt]

The test firing was planned before all this and the US had been informed.

There seems some confusion.

You know.

Like, the Yanks say not...

Frustratingly hard to pull the true picture from the rhetoric and tabloid bullshit.


Edit.

I miss read. The Yanks were informed, but only this morning. Normal is several months notice, apparently (?).

[Sloper]

So the question of when is vital, if it was planned in August, stupid but no big deal, if it was planned Thursday last week, different ball game.

[Oldmanmatt]

If this is an accurate read on the mental (and I use that word specifically) state/process of the Russian leadership, then they are utterly Bonkers!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-there-will-be-war-in-ukraine/495740.html

Do they actually believe that Hitlers Ghost is coming for them?

That Everyone west of the Danube is a Nazi storm trooper?

That Ukraine intends to challenge Russia for territory?

Fucking nuts!

'Scuse my French...

[Sloper]

The Russians also conveniently forget that their own actions both during WWII and thereafter don't exactly stand up to scrutiny either!

[PipeSmoke]

To be fair all the nations with any sort of power and leverage now a days have all protected interests and been where perhaps they should have not been at some point. Its all just hypocrisy that will blow up in everyone face one day.

[petejh]

The Russians also conveniently forget that their own actions both during WWII and thereafter don't exactly stand up to scrutiny either!

FFS Sloper, who's do, really?

Baddies and goodies my arse.

[Oldmanmatt]

The Russians also conveniently forget that their own actions both during WWII and thereafter don't exactly stand up to scrutiny either!

FFS Sloper, who's do, really?

Baddies and goodies my arse.

Pete,

Uncle Joe killed millions (far more than Hitler) of his own people (including a conservative estimate of 2 M of his own troops, for the crime of being "contaminated" by contact with Allied troops).
He and his successors brutally suppressed the populations east of the curtain (I have spoken to and known many of those who suffered).
There is just no comparison, in modern history, except Hitlers Reich.

The worst excesses of Colonial Britain (Boer war, Amritsar etc) combined, pale into insignificance.

Even the Portuguese, consummate masters of colonial inhumanity, tip their hats to the Soviets.

War is Fucking shit.

End of.

It matters not if it is dressed up as Peace-keeping or Patriotism.

And having watched the Serbs and some of the shit that has happened in West Africa, I can promise there is no shortage of "Baddies".

I'm not so sure about "Goodies".

[petejh]

Don't need a history lecture. And I was in Bosnia in 1995 and know all about Serbs.

But then I also know about the Muslims and the Croats.

And the Brits...

Bottom line is there are good people and bad, not nationalities.

[Sloper]

The point is that the 'Russians' are tryign to justify their actions on the basis that:-

a) the toppling of the previous President (note, not the Parliament) was the work of neo nazis, and
b) the same neo nazis were about to launch a genocidal campaign against 'ethnic russians'.

For that reason the culpability of the Russians in crimes against humanity is relevant; particularly as so many of these crimes were committed in peace time.

If there were a murderous campaign of genocide then the Russians stepping in would have strong arguments as to its legitimacy.

[petejh]

Really... only those two reasons? And no others? You're as nuts as Putin if you really believe that.

[Sloper]

Of course tehy're raising other grounds but those two are, or at least are being presented as, the central thrust of their argument.

as for being as nuts as Putin, maybe I'm madder, I do have a propesnity to wander around bare chested and strike unusual poses.

But don't worry, I won't take offence it's not as if you compared me to Dave Thomas

[fried]

The point is that the 'Russians' are tryign to justify their actions on the basis that:-

a) the toppling of the previous President (note, not the Parliament) was the work of neo nazis, and
b) the same neo nazis were about to launch a genocidal campaign against 'ethnic russians'.

For that reason the culpability of the Russians in crimes against humanity is relevant; particularly as so many of these crimes were committed in peace time.

If there were a murderous campaign of genocide then the Russians stepping in would have strong arguments as to its legitimacy.

I don't think the 'Russians' are trying to justify anything as much as whip up a bit of nationalist, jingoistic fervour which is pretty much what any leader has done since the year dot.

Or if that doesn't work there's always 'terrorists'.

I'm still waiting for one of my students to use 'terrorists ate it' as an excuse for not handing in homework.

[pyrosis]

Interesting...



Anyway, I think for the most part it's all irrelevant to the central point - the Russians are not giving up the Crimea to a government that isn't sympathetic to their interests, and the cost vs benefit analysis of trying to uproot them from the penninsula just isn't going to pencil out for the West. The rest of eastern Ukraine, however, seems a bit more of a wild card.

[slackline]

Interesting...



Anyway, I think for the most part it's all irrelevant to the central point - the Russians are not giving up the Crimea to a government that isn't sympathetic to their interests, and the cost vs benefit analysis of trying to uproot them from the penninsula just isn't going to pencil out for the West. The rest of eastern Ukraine, however, seems a bit more of a wild card.

And the repsonse from Russia Today...

When a journalist disagrees with the editorial position of his or her organization, the usual course of action is to address those grievances with the editor, and, if they cannot be resolved, to quit like a professional. But when someone makes a big public show of a personal decision, it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt.

[petejh]

Perhaps she'll get a job righteously broadcasting 'the truth' on Fox News.

[Sloper]

na pravda da Ivestia, na Ivestia da Pravda (excuse the lack of a proper Ruski keyboard etc) but FFS as shit and one eyed Fox News is, to compare it to the RT is rediculous

[petejh]

When I google'd that to see what it meant guess what the first result was?
( ''did you mean na pravda da Izvestia, na Izvestia da Pravda'' )

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=na+pravda+da+Ivestia,+na+Ivestia+da+Pravda&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=-7wYU-eyLYrY7AbloYCoCQ


The old one's are the best eh?

[Sloper]

That's the one, I have heaps of old soviet era jokes.

[tomtom]

Nice article.

[jwi]

I just talked to a ethnic Russian from eastern Ukraine who told me that anyone who prefer Russian rule over Ukrainan independence is a bloody idiot.

Make what you want of that

[slackline]

Interesting take on Russias current moves

[psychomansam]

I am a fan of Stratfor, the geopolitical consulting firm ... though I am too tight to subscribe to their stuff. Stratfor's boss, George Friedman's 2009 book The Next 100 Years is worth reading IMO. An extract anticipating the crisis in Ukraine is here.

Their local analyst also just wrote an interesting update on Ukraine that seems to be free to view.

Not saying they're not a useful source of info, but.... a fan?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/28/wikileaks-intelligence-industrial-complex
http://wikileaks.org/the-gifiles.html
http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/

[jwi]

Yesterday my gf said that "I'll soon have passports from two countries that ceased to exists" (Soviet and Ukraine)

[psychomansam]

What price bad intelligence? Some 5m internal emails from Stratfor, an Austin, Texas-based company that brands itself as a "global intelligence" provider, were recently obtained by Anonymous, the hacker collective, and are being released in batches by WikiLeaks, the whistleblowing website, starting Monday.

The most striking revelation from the latest disclosure is not simply the military-industrial complex that conspires to spy on citizens, activists and trouble-causers, but the extremely low quality of the information available to the highest bidder. Clients of the company include Dow Chemical, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, as well as US government agencies like the Department of Homeland Security, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Marines.
...
Statfor belongs to an extensive industry. In Top Secret America, a new book by Dana Priest and William Arkin of the Washington Post, the authors reveal that there are literally thousands of so-called intelligence analysts hawking equally dubious information to the federal government
By its very nature, of course, such information is secret and often protected by government order. Nothing short of a major congressional investigation will be able to drill down into this intelligence-industrial cartel to assess not just the quality of the information and the way it was obtained, but whether or not any of it serves the public interest – or the very opposite. That is, unless Anonymous or WikiLeaks gets there and does the work first.
(Gruniad)

Are these organisations promoting the good of the public? Are they democratic? Why do they exist and what are the alternatives?

[petejh]

Well they enable one to sound intelligent and informed when entering into debates about current affairs on web forum's and in coffee shops.That's got to be worth something to someone.