[Oldmanmatt]

The workplace is a receding memory for me but I am fairly confident that the world's least productive employees are gulf arabs working in high status public-sector jobs in places like the UAE and Qatar. A standard day for these usually-obese guys would be to rock up a couple of hours late, at, say 10am, in their Aston Martin Vantage (younger guys) or Cayenne Turbo (family men), waddle into the elevator from the air-conditioned carpark, waddle to their desk in their private office with ceiling-to-floor sea view window, dispatch a pakistani "office boy" to Costa Coffee with a vague and confusing order guaranteed to hold up normal customers, consume the same whilst checking luxury car websites, waddle into the office of another of their countrymen to discuss luxury cars either purchased or about to be purchased whilst consuming small cups of cardamon coffee with dates, patronise any foreign hire office worker brave enough to disturb them with some issue relating to their employment's stated purpose, wadddle to elevator with same fellow countrymen to visit on-site mosque for 1 minute of ostentatious "prayers", waddle to lunch ditto, return to car park at, say, 1pm, and drive home to their twenty room starter-palace to abuse one of their philippino housemaids and have a well-deserved rest. Later in the day they might perhaps meet briefly with one of their western colleagues, though not at work, in order to pick up some bottles of whisky that had been bought illegally on their behalf. All of the above is true.

I second that.

You forgot the highly irritating and Sadistic Egyptian/Palestinian arsehole who actually has all the power in the office, visiting for his daily "Arselick Al Bab break"...

[GCW]

Take home pay too GCW? You must have been on about seven grand a week. Not doing the "poor doctors" case a lot of good.

;-)

Balls to you, blondie   

[Jaspersharpe]

Balls to you, blondie   

You know i was only kidding darling. 

Re being overworked and underpaid when you start a career, I know plenty about that. I started on a "work placement" at 19 where I worked 4 days a week and did 1 day at college. The firm paid for my course and exam fees but that was where the good bit ended as I started on £4k a year (in 1993). Fair enough as I had no experience and they were paying me to learn but because I'm not an idiot, pretty soon I was generating quite a lot of money for them and still being paid fuck all.

I spent absolutely ages earning a really shit wage (working for a number of different firms) and it's only in the last ten years or so that I've been able to use the skills and experience that only doing a job for years can give you to start earning decent money. As a guy with 20 years of experience in the profession told me when I started out, there are a lot of poor accountants (I now know this to be true in both respects).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make re the OP is that I do think there's a problem with large swathes of society these days who think that they shouldn't just be able to have everything but that they should have everything NOW despite the fact that they've done nothing to earn it. Advertising, X-Factor, celebrity magazines, "Reality" TV, I'm pretty sure it all combines to make a lot of people feel totally inadequate financially because they can't afford a new car, a £150 pair of jeans or to pay their rent on time every month and have a life. If a half brained mong like Lee from Blue can, why can't I?

So perhaps this works in one of two ways in that young people who manage to get a foot on the career ladder either feel lucky because they know jobs (decent jobs which give you a future) are scarce and therefore do their best and excel (as in lagers and my experience) or they think they should be being paid way more NOW and earning such a pittance means why should they be giving anywhere near 100% to the job.

It's certainly not fair to tar everyone with the same brush anyway but I'd expect nothing less from Sloper.

[Ssebo Banage]

To stick up for junior doctors the 2013 GMC national training survey of 14,615 foundation (i.e. junior) doctors found that 68.9% worked beyond their rostered hours on a daily or weekly basis and 32.1% found the working pattern left them feeling short of sleep when at work on a daily or weekly basis.

The point I was trying to make was that not all junior doctors only fulfil their hours and duties, as highlighted in fatkit2000’s example, rather that the data shows the majority work additional hours to those they are contracted to.  Working hours are lower nowadays for junior doctors however I still feel that the junior doctors I work with have a good work ethic and attitude that does not warrant criticism in public. 

[GCW]

Try telling that to the national press.

[psychomansam]

In education, the only people working harder than NQTs(first year teachers) are earning at least twice as much.

Currently the majority of the profession is pretty fucked off, but there's still generally more hard-working and more well-motivated teachers at the start of their career. It's a difficult and highly stressful profession. 34% of teachers quit the profession in their first five years. I suspect that after that, the improving retention rate is, yes, partly due to survival of the fittest, but is also down to teachers not wanting to pack in a (by that point) £32k+ job for a shitty labour market they're out of touch with. This results in a small minority of somewhat older people doing the job whilst being totally de-moralised. If they were young and felt like that. They'd have just quit. But now they have kids and a mortgage.

Of course, whether the hard work NQTs put in translates into good lessons is another thing. For most of us, experience is also very important.

[fatdoc]

To stick up for junior doctors the 2013 GMC national training survey of 14,615 foundation (i.e. junior) doctors found that 68.9% worked beyond their rostered hours on a daily or weekly basis and 32.1% found the working pattern left them feeling short of sleep when at work on a daily or weekly basis.

The point I was trying to make was that not all junior doctors only fulfil their hours and duties, as highlighted in fatkit2000’s example, rather that the data shows the majority work additional hours to those they are contracted to.  Working hours are lower nowadays for junior doctors however I still feel that the junior doctors I work with have a good work ethic and attitude that does not warrant criticism in public.

Fair point.. BUT this is just the start.. It will get worse, and believe u me once shifts became the normal the whole attitude changed, as it would do.. It's normal human behaviour...

You leave a job at a "handover" fuck that...That never used to happen. YOU did it.... On a 6 month contract post.. If u didn't your career was dead.

This was bad...

It's swung too far... All acute care drs  should work 56 hrs until consultant, then 48.

That would give the skills back.... Which are fast depleting...

This current state of affairs and piss poor consideration of training numbers in the right place, at the right time, for the right candidate.... aids the last 4 terms of government to centralise services mind....another issue I appreciate..


Its not too late to move into the Law......

[fatdoc]

BTW...

sloper...... Good thread.

[Sloper]

Move into the law, I presume you've been self medicating. 

A trainee solicitor in a reasonable sized firm outside London will probably be on £17,000 a year for two years, this is after 4 years of undergrad and then post grad study with fees (if you're starting now of >£40k without living expenses).

<30% of people who read law will practice as a qualified lawyer.  Rates in some practice areas for >+5 PQE will be around £30k.

As for hours, of late I've been averaging 50+ or even 60 hours per week of late.  When I worked in the criminal justice system when first called I regularly did 60+ hour weeks and the experience was invaluable.hen
When I see people expecting to obtain the experience and skills in 35+ per week and be partner by the time they're in their early 30's I do wonder whether they've got the abilities to even practice.

Maybe this culture of entitlement is limited to the professions (i.e law and medicine)

[fatdoc]

Indeed...

Not in regard to the self medication claim.

What also perhaps has an influance in behaviour ( again I must say if u are shift worked one behaves as such.. No slur on any individual ) is the crushing debt these career choices now carry. My children have been most dismayed to hear of me saying medicine is not a good career choice... It's bloody good fun... Wouldn't change for the world now.. But...

My knowledge of legal career pathways is somewhat slanted... My brother works in corporate law in Asia.

[Sloper]

well most lawyers I know say that they don't want their children to go into law but medicine as the hours are easy, there's real job security, you get paid a fortune and don't have to deal with the SRA or Legal Ombudsman (cvnting retards). Now I know the suggestion that medicine is a doddle will be slightly provocative.

Yes the debt is a real issue, well done Labour for introducing tuition fees, top up fees and then putting in the review mechanism that led to the increase to £9k.  FWIW I would scale back the numbers going into HE, have a serious review of the debauchment of standards and make HE free again.

[lagerstarfish]

  FWIW I would scale back the numbers going into HE, have a serious review of the debauchment of standards and make HE free again.

could we also have some good quality careers advice service? preferably with exams to demonstrate that people have actually listened to and thought about their choices for education and how that relates to possible futures

I knew nothing about the huge differences of income for different professions when I was at school

[Sloper]

Careers advice: Don't go to a shit university to read a shit subject, cut the middle man out and learn to make a caffe latte when you're 18.

Don't think a degree in mejia studies is going to get you a job at the Guardian (unless you were at Winchester and are well connected to a well known lefty).

Don't think you're going to be well paid for the first few years of your career or ever if you're going into a standard job.

[lagerstarfish]

all of that would have helped me (went to Durham to read maths FFS)

many (most), young people have no informed guidance and (state school) teachers do not have the time or specific knowledge to help

that thing about not getting well paid at first, but the experience being very valuable indeed? I had no idea

[fatdoc]

This thread is becoming worthwhile.....

With the crux of the issue being.. Do our young people realise WTF they are doing / gettin into hideous debit for? And how to get out of it??

Yes, I can see the job security of medicine as a draw... But there is no worthwhile safe clinical autonomy and believe you me... Medical management does nothing to improve the odds of doing what most experienced consultants really want to do... Evidence based service development... It being a beast that rarely fits into one financial year.. And never dovetails with different parliaments. the public deserve the true insight of these unbelievably well trained dedicated individuals... Yet I see 95% of them drifting in their last 10 years of service.... Beaten to mind state of " I've had enough"....

I'm Attempting to tie into the start of the thread.. My means of explanation.. Not just moaning.

[GCW]

Tell your kids:  don't be a doctor.

[fatkid2000]

My mutterings about GP trainees may be wrong - but I can't see how our current trainee is going to be able to cope come August with full independent practice - as fatdoc states it's the system that has screwed up.

Some of the changes with working patterns are far better for patients - I remember working 72 hours non - stop. Consultants actually come in at night in general, but continuity of care is far worse.

[Sloper]

Just remind me, who introduced the new system for training?

[AndyR]

Son #1 turns 14 shortly and his pushy mum has already started fretting about university courses etc. I find it hard to imagine where his best prospects lie, beyond standard hippy "follow you heart, son" stuff. He is fluent in Japanese and English and capable, but not outstanding, at maths. My vague feeling is that doing some kind of joint asian languages + maths or computer science thing at university (if such a thing is possible) might open some doors without committing him too much too early but ... who knows? Still a few years before any decisions actually have to be taken, of course.

The Economist had a scary article recently on the future of middle-class jobs (maybe not accessible if you don't have a subscription).

Looks like best options are training to become a tooth mechanic or a professional god-botherer based on that report if you wish to future-proof Son#1...

[petejh]

. . .

Is it just me who finds that too many young people in the work place just haven't got any grit, application, discipline or work ethic?

I have a junior member of my team who has been disciplined, on performance management, given a warning as to their future conduct and yet they're still coming in 5 minutes late and leaving 5 minutes early and yet they still think that they're entitled to a training contract (which as any one in law will tell you, tc's are not in great supply).

Is this something that's widely recognised or am I maligning a generation on the basis of a little 'noise' emanating fro the bad cases we notice?

Move into the law, I presume you've been self medicating. 

A trainee solicitor in a reasonable sized firm outside London will probably be on £17,000 a year for two years, this is after 4 years of undergrad and then post grad study with fees (if you're starting now of >£40k without living expenses).

<30% of people who read law will practice as a qualified lawyer.  Rates in some practice areas for >+5 PQE will be around £30k.

As for hours, of late I've been averaging 50+ or even 60 hours per week of late.  When I worked in the criminal justice system when first called I regularly did 60+ hour weeks and the experience was invaluable.hen
When I see people expecting to obtain the experience and skills in 35+ per week and be partner by the time they're in their early 30's I do wonder whether they've got the abilities to even practice.

Maybe this culture of entitlement is limited to the professions (i.e law and medicine)

Culture of entitlement, or just a manifestation of the recognition that grafting your balls off (in the manner you describe above) is a mug's game, unless you're completely happy that your career is to be one of the most dominant things in your life? If so fair enough, but that's your choice. A lot of people don't see the point of grafting all hours for any job. People like me for instance. My career advice to anyone would be get a specialist trade (including the professions obviously) and then find well-paying work which doesn't require you to work your life away, i.e. work where you have control over the number of days you do - and then do the lowest number possible for the quality of life you desire to sustain. I find it hard to believe (but correct me if I'm wrong) that an experienced lawyer has to work as much as you describe to stay in a job - not that losing your job was mentioned as a reason. You must like (or are habituated to?) the long hours of graft. So either you like doing that or if you don't, you're either daft, or have a substantial drug/car/alcohol/holiday-house habit to sustain.
I don't have much admiration for people who relish working especially long hours. Especially if they moan about other people not wanting to do the same as them. Everything's a choice - you chose to graft your ass off, I don't believe working like a dog should be mandatory if you want to earn a decent wage and have a good quality of life. I earn not very far off 3 times your 'trainee solicitor' example and work 4 days a week, didn't spend 4 years paying over the odds for schooling and don't have to put up with ball breaking, stress inducing, health-damaging hours. I fell on my feet, but I'd still find well paid work elsewhere if I wasn't doing what I am.

[slackline]

FWIW I would scale back the numbers going into HE, have a serious review of the debauchment of standards and make HE free again.

The notion that 50% of youngsters should go to University was fucking ludicrous in the first place.  It only served to degrade standards and inevitably led to the introduction of fees.  It was manifestly a 

[Jaspersharpe]

The machines are not just cleverer, they also have access to far more data. The combination of big data and smart machines will take over some occupations wholesale; in others it will allow firms to do more with fewer workers. Text-mining programs will displace professional jobs in legal services. Biopsies will be analysed more efficiently by image-processing software than lab technicians. Accountants may follow travel agents and tellers into the unemployment line as tax software improves.

 

Dear oh dear, I don't think the author has the first idea what most accountants actually do. They could have tried a bit of research instead of coming out with crap like this.

[slackline]

The machines are not just cleverer, they also have access to far more data. The combination of big data and smart machines will take over some occupations wholesale; in others it will allow firms to do more with fewer workers. Text-mining programs will displace professional jobs in legal services. Biopsies will be analysed more efficiently by image-processing software than lab technicians. Accountants may follow travel agents and tellers into the unemployment line as tax software improves.

 

Dear oh dear, I don't think the author has the first idea what most accountants actually do. They could have tried a bit of research instead of coming out with crap like this.

Nor do they have any idea about "big data" (bullshit buzzword in my opinion), text-mining, or the problems with unsupervised learning done by "smart machines".  You can trawl through whatever you want and find patterns and correlations and relationships, but whether they are meaningful is a whole world apart from identifying them.

[lagerstarfish]

I don't think the author has the first idea what most accountants actually do.

"here's a couple of carrier bags full of receipts and hand written invoices - can you tell me how much I should pay HMRC... tomorrow"

I can't see a machine doing that any time soon

[tomtom]

I don't think the author has the first idea what most accountants actually do.

"here's a couple of carrier bags full of receipts and hand written invoices - can you tell me how much I should pay HMRC... tomorrow"

I can't see a machine doing that any time soon

Can they make a machine that is capable of going to the Sheaf, drink 10 pints of blonde and say cunt lots of times? Well until they can your job is safe