[Fultonius]

Ha, I hope you don't that was an attack at wind power?  Was just a response to Chris's buzzard comment. I think we need to do everything we can...

[andy_e]

No, it was an attack on Daily Mail NIMBYs, not you!

[SA Chris]

One bird? Is that all it killed? What about all the hundreds of species being pushed to extinction by global warming?

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/07/24/us-wind-turbines-kill-14-million-birds-and-bats-every-year

slightly more than 1??

[tomtom]

Wind energy plans were part of the 'stopgap' put in place by the last government before nuclear could come on line (20-30 years).

I've been in seminars in Hull - where in the North Sea offshore wind turbines should be commissioned at a rate of 1 every 5 days from 2015-2020. Its a very large number - and the turbines in question are typically twice the size of the largest on land. But whilst not stopped many of these plans have been slowed down considerably by the energy co's seeing a cooling on the idea from our present government. The Wind co's need to have a gaurunteed min price for 20 years etc.. in order to put the things in and the word from the Government has not necessarily reassured them. Along with wobbles about whether we will be part of the EU in 3 or 4 years time.

sorry about the spellign in a hurry

[tregiffian]

Balcome is conveniently near Brighton and London. Would the demo regulars be on duty ay Rawtenstall or Heptonstall in January?

[andy_e]

It's also conveniently not a shale gas well, other than it being operated by the same company I don't get why they're protesting it so much.

[rc]

The tidal 'potential' in the UK is huge - but what is economically usable (once you factor in the engineering) is less huge...

Catching up with this interesting debate had me reaching for the only resource I use on this stuff: sustainability without the hot air. This awesome book is free to download.
Nice section on tidal - MacKay points out that the entire North Sea is in fact a tidal pool and tidal stream farms could in principle be constructed - though no one yet did this so it is a long way off.
He reckons maximum conceivable (cost no object) tidal energy production for the UK is 11kWh per person per day (having converted total production into this unit for ease of comparison). Other studies suggest more like 4kWh pppd. For comparison average energy consumption is about 125kWh pppd (in the UK). So tidal could contribute and is reliable but is only part of the solution - and only then if someone figures out how the hell to harness it.

As has been touched on, a big issue with a lot of renewables is that they are not reliable and we dont have much storage capacpity. I think most reasonable options for hydro pumping storage (e.g. Dinorwig) have already been developed in the UK. The problem renewables typically fail to deal with are how to (a) guarantee accommodating peak demand and (b) ensure frequency regulation (as demand fluctuates on a second by second basis you need to keep frequency matching). We need quick-response generation facilities for this - i.e. not wind or solar.

There is also the problem of slow start up and shut down speeds of many power generators. At night (under low demand/base load) even when the wind blows and the operator "flips the switch" to use wind farm generation, they cannot simply shut down a coal power station for 2 hours - they simply let it "piss into the wind" and nevertheless happily can claim another 0.2% (or whatever) of UK electricity came from RE - despite the coal still burning! These sort of generation facilities are also often kept running as "hot reserve" ready to be used when demand bumps up.

One final thought (a depressing one - apologies). My synopsis of a talk I recently heard given by an economist is that *all* the fossil fuels we can manage to extract will be used up - it is only a question of over what period of time. This is because the extraction cost is so much lower than the market price for oil, gas, coal etc. So economics says "we will use it ALL". Unfortunately it seems that we/someone will.
It reminded me why I've never been a fan of economics...

[tregiffian]

Like reading the Daily Mail, you get to feel righteous indignation which releases adrenaline.

[tomtom]

For those wanting to read up on the SCIENCE behind fracking and its possible impacts - some useful resources here:

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/shalegas

and references

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/~/media/shared/documents/policy/Policy%20Meetings/Suggested%20Further%20Reading%20-%20Final.ashx

[i.munro]

. So economics says "we will use it ALL". Unfortunately it seems that we/someone will.
It reminded me why I've never been a fan of economics...

Whether that's true or not we can be sure that it won't be homo sapiens doing it.
There seems to be more than enough oil for climate change to drive us extinct without even touching shale gas & coal.

[SA Chris]

http://blog.abundancegeneration.com/2013/08/are-utilities-going-the-way-of-kodak/

Interesting. Although probably slightly biased considering the source.

[slackline]

Scotland approves huge tidal power project

[SEDur]

So Fracking

http://www.texassharon.com/2013/09/15/is-there-a-media-blackout-on-the-fracking-flood-disaster-in-colorado/

[Stubbs]

Could we restrict links posted to sensible websites?  So a fracking site is underwater and some things are leaking; can you imagine what else has been underwater in CO during the floods?! Power stations, petrol stations, refineries, etc. etc.

[tomtom]

The website is a bit nuts, but the overall message is important -

Fracking in a flood risk area is clearly not a good idea... I suspect this would not be allowed to occur in the UK as part of the IA for any site.. Its also worth noting that the sites in the UK are heavily bunded - so they obviously have to oblige by the same regulations for storing chemicals on site as anywhere else...

USA - different regulation system - which can (I think) vary from state to state....

[fatneck]

I heart UKB...

[SA Chris]

Its also worth noting that the sites in the UK are heavily bunded - so they obviously have to oblige by the same regulations for storing chemicals on site as anywhere else...

Would have needed to be a bloody great bund to keep all that Colorado floodwater out! Not sure that's what bunds are designed for.

[tomtom]

Its also worth noting that the sites in the UK are heavily bunded - so they obviously have to oblige by the same regulations for storing chemicals on site as anywhere else...

Would have needed to be a bloody great bund to keep all that Colorado floodwater out! Not sure that's what bunds are designed for.

Bunds are generally designed to keep stuff in. So if you have an oil spill - it can't leak down or sideways.. But (to a degree) would do things the other way around. No way you'd be allowed to keep open stores of oil/chemicals/contamianted water in a flood risk area.

One of the main findings from the 08 Pitt report following the 2007 floods was a need to assess critical infrastructure situated in flood risk areas (power stations, water treatment works, bouldering walls etc..) in order to protect them from future events etc..

[Johnny Brown]

Scotland approves huge tidal power project

This is fantastic. I've been wondering where stuff like this has been for years, be keen to learn more about the technology if anyone's seen anything.

[andy_e]

Scotland approves huge tidal power project

I concur. 40% of highland homes from one source? Brilliant!

[finbarrr]

just watched "Gasland part 2" after seeing the first documentary a couple of years ago, and a few youtube clips of affected people in the mean time.
some science in there, but mostly lots of actual cases where groundwater has been contaminated, and people are getting sick.
Worth watching.

i'm turning more and more against it, as it is coming closer to the netherlands (where i live). The government is trying to allow test-sites, but communities don't want them. What's more: some big companies that use water (breweries for instance) are dead set against it.

[finbarrr]

P.S. this documentary (gasland 2) also focusses on the fracking lobby, their influence and their methods :counter-insurgency taken from the military and "denail" taken from the old tabacco lobby

[slackline]

Apparently companies need permission to drill/frack underneath your property.

This has the potential (depending on precise location) to undermine the mine surveys done when I bought my house a number of years ago.

[SA Chris]

undermine the mine surveys

Very good.

[burbistan]

Apparently companies need permission to drill/frack underneath your property.

But frackers can obtain that permission under compulsory purchase order. You can't stop them but you can haggle over a share of profits. Relevant case summary is here. In this case the drillers didn't obtain permission and so trespass was found against them, but in the end no damages were awarded because there was no possibility of loss to the landowner (Mohamed Al Fayed) whose property was drilled under.