[tomtom]

I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting

I do find that interesting.  Anyone care to take a stab at number of people in the UK bouldering 8A and up?  Do people really consider 7B to be average punter level now?

Thats a very interesting question that I'm going to try and answer with a poll.... watch this (or near) space..

Edit: Poll here: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22541.0.html

[Three Nine]

I think there's a few more Brits climbing 8c/+ now than in Gavs day but not that many more!

I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting

You only do that so you can feel smug about being in that elite 11 you sad cunt.

[Jaspersharpe]

The average grade of boulderers has reduced massively in recent years and will continue to. Simple maths as the subdivision of the sport used to be the preserve of the elite but is now becoming more and more popular.

7B as an average punters grade is a fucking joke. More like 5.

Don't take my word though, ask someone who owns a large popular bouldering wall who their average customer is?

Oh and a poll on here isn't going to help (sorry Tom) as 90% of your average grade punters (and Chris Craggs) won't see it.

It's a bit like the election poll where the Lib Dems would have romped to victory based on ukb votes.

You're discounting the majority so it's nonsense.

[tomtom]

yeah yeah yeah...

Sherioushly though it will give us an idea of how hard people on here climb..

I've always wondered what percentage of folk have done an 8..

[douglas]

Can anyone name a sport where the consensus is that to become better than most it is necessary only to partake in the sport with volume and without structure? I suspect not. But that is what I'm hearing here. It doesn't make sense.

[abarro81]

Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...

P.s. I wasn't trying to call you out on anything Doyle, just your post reminded me that I'd done that adding up the other day and I figured people might find it interesting to put a number on some of this stuff. I suspect I've missed a couple of ascents but doubt it's that many.

P.P.S. Scotty Gillery wins post of the year 

[krymson]

Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...

There are drills! And they dont have to be awkward. Check out Self Coached Climber. Helped me loads.

The top female climber in my country was coached when she first started climbing. Her "fundamentals" are solid as anything - great movement, great routereading and decisionmaking ... if you have the patience to read some books or have access to a knowledgable climber/coach there are things you can do to improve quicker/faster than "just climb"ing, even as a total beginner

Also, the advice to keep away from the fingerboard until you are at point X i feel is a bit misguided. There's nothing wrong with getting stronger in fingers or body- as long as you can keep perspective and realize it is just part of the bigger picture.

[ianv]

Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...

The top downhillers spend a lot of time in the gym. Upper body strength is really important.

It seems to me that just because someone got good by doing X doesn't mean its the only way to do it. The lad is obviously a talent so he would probably have got to the same point by doing Y.  Likewise, the people that train systematically but are not that good are equally likely to have been not that good by just climbing.

There are different ways to skin a cat, Yuji got good by climbing yet without his campus board Gillich would have been crap (I have witnessed his footwork!).

Personally, I think training off rock can create big improvements if used correctly.

[gme]

A hot topic! All from a little news comment.

I think what i was trying to say has been lost. I am not saying training is bad but that none climbing movement training is being used too much as a primary method rather than a supplementary.

Ben does train and he trains really hard in a focused manner, but all of the training he has done has been climbing based. Yes he has done a bit of beastmaker stuff and stretching (after years of swimming, running and cycling his flexibility was shit) but always as a supplementary form of training usually before or after climbing. He has never gone training at the wall if the opportunity to get outside was present even on days where the weather was shit.

All this, i feel has allowed him to progress so quickly and if he had gone down the route i see a lot of people at the wall following i have no doubt he would be very very strong and very very fit but i don't think he would have climbed anywhere near as well as he has. The gym goers mentality that is appearing at the walls, rather than the old climb as much as you can ideas, will hold people new to climbing back.

[quiffhanger]

I find all the structured, written down, technical training odd for people who are not operating at a high level (>8c .8A) when just doing loads of climbing will have more benefit. People where doing hard stuff of this grade years ago by just climbing and having climbed and trained with some of our top climbers for years i really cant remember seeing any of them being as strict and organised as some of the average 7a climbers these days.

Also beg to differ. Surely the distinction isn't how hard you climb but a) If you are still seeing improvements through just climbing & b) If you are able to spend the time available on real rock.

By your standards I'm a total punter who should just climb more. However I get outside as much as I can (weekends) and after "just climbing" when indoors for 10+ years I realised I wasn't getting any better. So, bar major lifestyle changes which would allow me to massively increase the time available for real climbing, maximizing efficiency through structure training seemed like the only option.

I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

In summary training allows the most committed to push standards OR the time-poor like myself to perform at a reasonable standard with a sh1tload less effort.

[gme]

quiffhanger- i think we are confusing structured training with type of training. Structure is important ie don't just do to the wall and do a bit of this and a bit of that. Focus on one thing at the wall and dont be distracted. But at all but the highest levels that focus should be on climbing and not all the peripheral stuff like campusing, core, fingerboards.

If your weak on steep fingery stuff, boulder on a steep fingery board, if your crap at slabs, do slabs. etc etc. 1. it works and 2. its miles more fun than hanging off a piece of wood.

As an aside i am at this moment doing some deadhangs and campus stuff but the only reason i am doing this is i got board of the climbing wall, i can do it at home and i fancy seeing how good i can get at hanging of blocks of wood and one armers. Reason- i have no time at all to go outside so dont even think about it. Keeps me fit and strong, much like going to the gym, but more fun.

I am getting stronger at these exercises but i suspect if i go outside to boulder i will climb like a cock.

[andy_e]

I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.

[quiffhanger]

I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.

Fair play. I've always suspected I'm genetically pre-disposed to climbing mediocrity 

More seriously, do many people really manage to get to 8B with less than 6 hours training per week and getting out at weekends? That would be depressing, although I am trying to juggle many balls as also keen for trad/sport this seems completely unobtainable for me without spending serious amounts more time, or moving to Font.

-ross

[Eddies]

Wow... it dosent take much to get a rant going!
I posted Bens trianing blog because I was suprised to see someone as good as Ben posting details of their training routines.

'gme' says Ben is on a gap year so it would be interesting to know how much of those routines get done per week/month and whether any of it is routine at all or just there to fill the periods of bad weather he's been having.

[quiffhanger]

If your weak on steep fingery stuff, boulder on a steep fingery board, if your crap at slabs, do slabs. etc etc. 1. it works and 2. its miles more fun than hanging off a piece of wood.

I agree, circumstances permitting, but my local wall doesn't have a steep board (I know!) but does have a campus board... And I have a fingerboard in my bedroom which saves me 40mins of faff getting to and from the wall. And I can do my washing/tidying/chores between sets (although that does leave everything covered in chalk).

I think my general point is, sure climbing is better for most people but there are many valid circumstances where punters like myself have a good reason to use pragmatic alternatives.

[Stubbs]

What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.

Pretty sure I've seen you on both fingerboard and campus board Andi

[andy_e]

Possibly, although if you'd watched you'd probably realise I wasn't doing it with any structure and I only ever go up to fingerboards to try one-armers.

[gme]

'gme' says Ben is on a gap year so it would be interesting to know how much of those routines get done per week/month and whether any of it is routine at all or just there to fill the periods of bad weather he's been having.
[/quote]

If you read his blog you will see that in the last 6 months he has done no structured training for endurance at all, hes just climbed 100s of routes of all grades. He spent Jan/ Feb bouldering both indoors and out then did a pretty physical job for 6-7 weeks to raise the cash for his trip and only really climbed at weekends. Started his trip with F**k all stamina but reasonably strong and built on it from there with mileage.

A bit old school to some, and he has the benefit of being able to go on an extended trip, but it seems to have worked.

[fatdoc]

gme - I'm not for one second saying that climbing doesn't have it's place in training, and I'm sure all the stopwatch and notepad brigade are doing a lot of that too (at least I hope so!) Rather that 'just going climbing' will not progress most people as fast as climbing+structured training.

As to the grades and the numbers of people, it really depends what year you are talking about I guess. I remember when there was a list of UK people who had climbed 8A on here in the early 00's and I don't think it got much past 50, these days I couldn't hazard a guess at the number - 400, 500?

I'm with gme on this one.

Much past 50?

You must be joking??? Nearer 250 plus.

Bet I could name 50 straight off!!!

Yes, there was a lot of training then... But it near all was climbing in some form or another, with hangs coming into fashion when I stopped training for routes ( 14 years ago )

[Stubbs]

Fatdoc: for the sake of reference I found the thread (a lot easier with the google search bar!) it looks to have got to around 100 in 2005. http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html

As this list was completed later than I thought I reckon ~50 wouldn't be far off for the early 2000's, but that point is moot.

[tomtom]

Fatdoc: for the sake of reference I found the thread (a lot easier with the google search bar!) it looks to have got to around 100 in 2005. http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html

As this list was completed later than I thought I reckon ~50 wouldn't be far off for the early 2000's, but that point is moot.

Interesting - as the poll is for those who are actively capable of climbing 8A - rather than those who have done it.. at the moment its 16 from c.130...

[biscuit]

All this, i feel has allowed him to progress so quickly and if he had gone down the route i see a lot of people at the wall following i have no doubt he would be very very strong and very very fit but i don't think he would have climbed anywhere near as well as he has. The gym goers mentality that is appearing at the walls, rather than the old climb as much as you can ideas, will hold people new to climbing back.

+1

You can be as string as you like but if you can't climb you're going to waste it. Climbing is always best.
As mentioned climbing can be training. You are crap at steep routes then climb lots of steep routes. It's climbing but it's training too. Much better than going on a 45 board and deciding whether to use toe hooks or heel hooks or not and if it's alright to do a drop knee cos your supposed to be training front on.

Outside on rock learning the movement associated with climbing, whilst getting stronger and tackling weaknesses ( if you want ) = best.

Inside on a wooden board in my garage because i can't get out as much as i want = not best but better than nothing

Inside on a wooden board because i am an elite climber needing to bust through a plateau = best for them.

[a dense loner]

I have no idea about all this training nonsense. All I will say is I let Ben climb with me on the 45 at the works just before his trip and he looked too much like Adam Lincoln for my liking

[Doylo]

Was he orange and wearing shades?

[andy_e]

He arrived in an Audi TT?