[i_a_coops]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=548025

Apparently a certain Mr. Cox wants to take a hacksaw to the bolts on Cocytus. I think this would be a massive shame as it is a really nice route in its current state. Would be interested to hear what people think of this, although I don't think there's anything to be done other than smearing the whole route in Vaseline just before he turns up....

(And yes, I probably made matters worse by getting sucked in. I've renewed my vow never to post on the other channel....)

[i_a_coops]

Um, have I been trolled?

[i_a_coops]

Ha I didn't think he would, I was just interested to see if anyone else would particularly like the bolts to stay in Cocytus. It would appear not!

I'm never posting on the other channel again, it makes me feel like a tit.

[andy popp]

It does that to me too.

[Stu Littlefair]

It pains me to admit, but I'm with JCM on this one.

When the pegs on cocytus were originally replaced with bolts I talked JCM and others out of chopping the bolts. My arguments at the time were that it was done by locals in general agreement with local climbers and didn't change the character of the original route.

It saddens me a bit that cocytus has now been fully bolted. It might be 'nice' in its current state, but it was nice as a trad route too.

I think it's important every now and again to kick back against increasing bolting of old trad routes. I don't think the first ascensionist of cocytus was ever that happy with it being bolted...

[Jaspersharpe]

He's not been given the warmest reception on other ukb threads.

He didn't exactly do himself any favours in that respect!

[Bonjoy]

I don't know the ins and outs of this route but it sounds like I think I agree with Stu. Using the replacement of pegs with bolts as a staging post for full bolting is out of order and does the cause of sensible route by route situ-gear assessment no favours. The retro-bolters are essentially proving the thin-end-of-the-wedgers to be right!

[Fiend]

What Bonjoy, Stu, and Coxy said. Sure he's all a bit Ken Wilson about it, but people do need to be fighting that corner.

[ianv]

So as I understand it, Ken Palmer did this as part of other bolting at Ansteys. And Ken is clearly someone who merits some respect. So I think John should make sure he has talked to Ken before taking any action.

 

Unless he has changed a lot since I knew him, he is definately not the type to unilaterally go gung ho on something like that.

Anyway, Ansteys is a sport crag and I dont see how the retroing of the one random trad route to be a big deal (especially if it improves the higher part of the route). That guy cox, sounds like a right tool.

[Stu Littlefair]

Anyway, Ansteys is a sport crag and I dont see how the retroing of the one random trad route to be a big deal (especially if it improves the higher part of the route). That guy cox, sounds like a right tool.

This quote perfectly illustrates why it is such a big deal. Anstey's is prominently a sport crag *now* but it got that way due to a process of creeping retro-bolting. Routes like cocytus and empire of the sun have gone from pegged up trad routes to hybrid sport routes to spicy sport routes and finally ended up as well bolted clip-ups.

Cocytus itself is far from a random trad route but was viewed as a classic SW E3 for many years. Perhaps the fact that people are a bit sniffy about it now has something to do with the fact that its just another 6c these days? Also, it has been at the forefront of the bolting issue from the start and is therefore something of a signature route. The original replacement of the pegs with bolts saw a very controversial chopping of the bolts by guys I was at Uni with - this was endlessly debated in the mags at the time. Eventually replacement of the pegs with staples was accepted largely because I (and others) argued that this wouldn't lead to the creeping sportification of the cliff. It's obvious in hindsight that I was wrong.

I agree that Ken will have thought about this carefully and consulted with other locals, but I think he, and they, are wrong in this case. If Ken can put bolts in after talking to a few folk locally, why should JCM have to get Ken's approval to take the out? It can certainly be argued that he has consulted more thoroughly and widely than Ken.

[ianv]

It felt like a sport crag to me back in 89/90 even if there was pegs rather than bolts,  the  nature of the fixed protection seem to me to be splitting hairs. Im pretty sure stuff like empire would have been bolted right from the off, if nick had had enough money to buy bolts.

[Oldmanmatt]

I was born here, in Paignton.
I learned to climb here and all around the SW.
Started climbing with my Dad when I was 8.

Climbed with Ron Heart up in North Cornwall (and had my first weekend/holiday job, Assistant instructor in the Cheese ring, Kit Hill etc etc).
With Wendy and crowd out at Chudleigh.

Sport was for wusses (late 70's early 80's).

Now I have my own kids.

My eldest is 7.

She leads 6a on the wall, but 4/5 on the rock.

She can't haul a lead rack! I wouldn't bloody let her lead anyway (my Dad let me lead my first route on The slabs below Tryffan when I was 12).

Now we have to drive to Portland to find low grade sport routes.

Why can't we have a few (relatively) low grade routes down here?

I don't speak for anyone else, it's just an opinion. I've not climbed it, but I will once the wall is up and running and I have time to breathe again.

If the bolts are chopped, will he re-peg it?

Or just leave the ones he likes?

But then it would just be a hybrid.

This would be the first time I've ever been dragged into the bolting debate, but since I now live in St Marychurch, five minutes from the cove (home after 25 years), I want to be able to climb without other people dictating to me how I should do it.

[Stu Littlefair]

Obviously this is a gray area. Anstey's has always felt like a sport crag to me too. I've climbed empire in all of its forms and they all felt like a sport route. But the nature of the gear clearly does affect the place. Would we be having this discussion if those pegs hadn't been replaced with bolts?

And I can appreciate the desire to have some local easy sport climbing, but come on son! Portland is not exactly far. Cheddar is closer. And then there's Torbryan. And the less pleasant quarries. I remember feeling a bit funny when Mayfair was bolted but I let it go because back then I thought that it would be a one off sort of thing.

The point I'm making is that these decisions need to be seen in a national, not just a local context. And sadly that means you cant just go climbing without being dictated to by others, since in doing so you dictate unto them. The tide in the bolting debate is turning. Requests like the above for just a bit of easy sport climbing are becoming more common. And they're hard to say no to, because in many respects they're perfectly reasonable. But if we don't start pushing back against them occasionally then, one day, we'll be having this conversation about somewhere like chee tor. Maybe eventually even places like stanage. I know that sounds ridiculous, but there are crags like high tor where 10 years ago I'd have said the same. Now look at it.

Given its history I think cocytus is one of those routes where it matters.

[shark]

but there are crags like high tor where 10 years ago I'd have said the same. Now look at it.

Look at what ? The right wing is bolted but that feels like a separate crag. There are some bolts left of Castellan but otherwise the Main face and Left Wing are unchanged.

[duncan]

Cocytus itself is far from a random trad route but was viewed as a classic SW E3 for many years.

FWIW I dispute this too. When I lived in London, in my twenties, weekends were all about ticking the SW trad classics, and the E3-E5 range was predominantly where our ambitions lay. I never recall any mention of Cocytus as an interesting objective.

Possibly because it was measly two star E2 in the Bible according to Pat....  (a guide that had not a single sport route in it. I think we can guess what the first ascentionist thinks about all this).

I support John Cox with the proviso that the bolts come out only if a neat and tidy job can be done.

I counted the routes at Anstey’s in S.Devon guide. More than half were trad. Mixed sport and trad. crags are one of those typical British compromises: nonsensical but work pretty well in practice with different styles coexisting more-or-less happily in places like Cheedale, Avon and the Slate. Co-existing happily until someone decides to “to test the waters”. If there is any future in ‘mixed’ crags then at some point someone has to say no to the creeping retro.ing of all inland limestone.

Like Stu’, I’ve always thought that such decisions are not just for locals to make when the crag is of more than local importance. Who decides on fixed gear at Pembroke? The developers (most notably from Cardiff, Stoke and Bristol)? The users (from everywhere)? Or two men and a dog from Tenby? It’s clearly not the latter. Of the last 30 Cocytus ascentionists using UKC logbooks and whose location was identifiable from their profiles, only 6 were locals (stretching the definition to include anyone from Devon). It’s not a route to be left to tender local mercies.

I fancy dusting off my RPs and having a go at a de-bolted Cocytus later this year.

[Jaspersharpe]

Maybe eventually even places like stanage.

Wow. Godwin's Law and from the person I'd least expect it. Wot no Indian Face?

C'mon Stu, your point about Chee Tor is surely null as it's the same point people made 25 years ago when the Cornice was bolted..... and yet the crag is still the same, with the same fantastic trad routes and with a few bolts.

I know nothing about the Ansteys situation so I can't really comment, other than that my default position with Mr Cox is to be skeptical as there's a fine line between ethical soundness and ego driven nonsense.

Ahem.

[Stu Littlefair]

The thing is though jasper, that I made the same arguments (almost word for word) to the thin-enders 5-10 years ago. I thought they were being ridiculous back then too, but look at high tor, and ansteys and crags like that.

I'm sure you don't spend much time on the other site, but last year there was a thread debating the wholesale bolting of stoney. The pro/con split on that thread was maybe 50/50. 5 years ago you'd have been pilloried for suggesting it.

So I agree I'm painting the most pessimistic picture possible, but if ten years on high tor, chee tor and stoney are sport crags then I wouldn't be surprised.

[Stu Littlefair]

Anstey's is one of the best steep limestone crags in the country. Whether that says more about anstey's or the UK, I'm not sure.

I'm never that comfortable with arguments that these decisions should be decided by locals. As I've tried to point out above, they set a tone which affects things nationally as well.

Even if you reject that, I don't think many people really hold to the idea that locals can do whatever they like. If the locals of Llanberis decided to paint Carreg Wastad in bright pink, how many in the climbing community would shrug and say "fair enough"?

[chris j]

To Stu and Duncan

When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?

[Stu Littlefair]

I'm never that comfortable with arguments that these decisions should be decided by locals. As I've tried to point out above, they set a tone which affects things nationally as well.

If that's a robust argument, why stop at "nationally"? Isn't "tone" in climbing being set globally these days?

No - I don't think it is. At least not to the same extent. Britain is, after all, notoriously parochial.

[Stu Littlefair]

To Stu and Duncan

When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?

I honestly don't know. Logically I'd prefer a return to the status quo, but for some reason we can't seem to leave "hybrid" routes alone in this country. I think I'd be happy with either, but a return to it's default 2-bolt state would be less controversial.

As an aside, it's worth considering that if crags like anstey's didn't keep providing evidence that bolting inevitably expands onto old trad routes and nearby cliffs, then people like JCM might be *much* less hostile to the idea of bolting places like Carn Vellan. I think the creeping expansion of bolting on routes like cocytus and giantslayer is a bit of an own-goal by the sport climbing community...

[Bonjoy]

 

C'mon Stu, your point about Chee Tor is surely null as it's the same point people made 25 years ago when the Cornice was bolted..... and yet the crag is still the same, with the same fantastic trad routes and with a few bolts.

The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.

[duncan]

To Stu and Duncan

When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?

Much as Stu'. I don't have a strong feeling either way. It's a little while since I looked at the route but I'm guessing there is little protection other than the 2 pegs / bolts. I'd be happy to see a return to the two bolt state having made the point. Taking them all out might provoke a further round of rebolting which is the last thing I want to see.

[Jaspersharpe]

The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.

Hmm. That's not good at all. Perhaps I didn't realise how bad things were getting in this respect......

[shark]

The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.

The outcry was deliberately muted online at least because of the access situation.

Whilst I don't agree with it being retro-bolted it was pretty much a clip-up on pegs before anyway.