[lagerstarfish]

when stupid sweeping statements are made I find it insulting

best disconnect that internet service

[Stubbs]

Dense I'm not sure it's possible to have a reasoned debate on the internet

[a dense loner]

How can I expect to have a reasoned debate with someone when they're not agreeing with me?

[Stubbs]

[slackline]

How can I expect to have a reasoned debate with someone when they're not agreeing with me?

[webbo]

This makes intresting reading.
http://x2t.com/173242

[Stubbs]

Well here is it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903716

Cycling legend Lance Armstrong's team ran "the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme the sport has ever seen" according to a report by the United States Anti-Doping Agency.

The full reasoned decision here (quite long!) Reasoned Decision

[dave]

Anyone care to read that document and summarise it in no more than 100 of your own words? Thanks.

[Nibile]

Anyone care to read that document and summarise it in no more than 100 of your own words? Thanks.

"Guilty as fuck"?
Just scrolled through the summary and read a few bits. It's frightening. How he forced other riders to take drugs, also.

[Stubbs]

A few more than 100, but the main meat of the summary:

 
Page | 2
This Reasoned Decision includes a summary of the overwhelming evidence that demonstrates that Mr. Armstrong doped throughout the majority of his professional cycling career. Among the evidence in this case are the sworn statements of more than two dozen (24+)witnesses, including fifteen (15) professional cyclists, and a dozen (12) members of Armstrong’s cycling teams, including eleven (11) former teammates and his former soigneur (masseuse). Nine (9) of the professional cyclists were, like Mr. Armstrong, clients of Dr. Michele Ferrari and have first hand knowledge of his doping practices.The evidence in this case also includes banking and accounting records from a Swiss company controlled by Dr. Ferrari reflecting more than one million dollars in payments by Mr.Armstrong, extensive email communications between Dr. Ferrari and his son and Mr. Armstrong during a time period in which Mr. Armstrong claimed to not have a professional relationship with Dr. Ferrari and a vast amount of additional data, including laboratory test results and expert analysis of Mr. Armstrong’s blood test results. This evidence is incorporated by reference into this Reasoned Decision as if fully set forth.

While this Reasoned Decision summarizes overwhelming evidence of Mr. Armstrong’s doping that would have been presented at the hearing had Mr. Armstrong not refused to challenge the charges against him, it necessarily cannot include all of the evidence that would have been presented at such a hearing. Had there been a hearing even more evidence would have been presented, including, evidence obtained through arbitration panel subpoenas and potentially evidence from government investigations

[dave]

As guilty as Jim'll.

[Palomides]

I've had a flick through and I'm struggling to remember any allegations about Armstrong that are NOT confirmed by this.

Hospital bed confession, Tour de Suisse positive, testosterone oil, huge payments to Ferrari, systematic team doping - all in there.

USADA have really thrown a whole library at LA.

Oddly, a faint ray of hope is Hincapies statement (on his website) that claims he's been clean since 2006 - that means that he rode the 2007 tour without rocket fuel - which backs up Alberto Contadors claim to be clean!

[moose]

Anyone care to read that document and summarise it in no more than 100 of your own words? Thanks.

From what I can tell:

Lance doped.  He pressured team-mates to dope.  He was bullied non-dopers.  The authorities knew.

[fatdoc]

Yep.

I'm gutted.

[SA Chris]

the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme the sport has ever seen

Surely that's an achievement.



At least he was being truthful when he said that.

[Palomides]

While the title is still apt, this book should be reclassified as fiction. (Approached as a fairy story loosely based on true events it's actually quite good).

Oh, and ignore my blathering about Bertie from last night - turns out his current trainer is repeatedly named as nothing but a doping facilitator in the USADA report (although I think he is one of the three who are contesting the USADA charges)

[gme]

I have just read that book having picked up a copy at a boot sale. I don't particularly have a massive interest in cycling but was keen to read about a man who on the face of it was a legend.

After reading it i thought that he came over as one of the most egotistical, bullying, arrogant tossers i have ever read about. His fight with cancer was commendable but no different to what thousands of unfortunate people go through every year, but the rest of his personal traits were pretty horrific. I cant imagine that he has many true friends at all the way he treated people and don't find the accusations of him being the ring leader in the whole drug debacle surprising at all.

I feel pretty strongly about drugs cheats in sport and don't think that the excuse that "everyone was doing it" stand for anything. Much like the east European athletes in the 80s it puts a pall over the sport for a long time.

What he and others have done is given the likes of me, and many others not particularly interested in cycling, the opinion that the sport is rife with drugs, always was and always will be. Which is a shame on the likes of Wiggins and Cavendish who really have to go some way to appease the doubters.

[Percy B]

Tyler Hamiltons book, The Secret Race is the most enlightening read on the whole Armstrong, USPostal, drugs in cycling subject, and makes it pretty clear what an arsehole Lance was/is..

Its also a really good book, easy to read, and is brutally honest about the whole doping thing.

[Dolly]

I'm reading that ATM as well Percy.
It is well written as you say. Makes you realise how much of their lives were taken up with drug sourcing, using, covering up etc

[fried]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/armstrong-usada-sophisticated-doping-scheme

This isn't my thing so i can't really comment. It might interest someone...

[tomtom]

eek!

[Stubbs]

[dave]

eek!

And 14 out of the last 17 years, 7 of which are armstrong. But he's still a hero, right?

[moose]

The only way for Lance to save his image would be if he cured cancer; "raising awareness" 'won't cut it no more.  I'm waiting for him to pop up on ebay, offering to swap a private jet for a rotary evaporator and a Johnny Ball chemistry set. 

[Falling Down]

I read (and skimmed parts of) the USADA report linked above and it makes for grim reading. Systemic abuse on a massive scale.  The testimony of various people quoted under oath bring an immediacy that makes for compelling reading.  Certainly better than anything Lance has ever (ghost) written.

Still, I'm comfortable with fact that the sport is relatively clean now, the stats bear it out over the last couple of years. No freaky breakaways, lower wattage/km and slower times.  Viewers complaining about boring stages and team tactics need a slap.