[Sasquatch]

I am probably living in a bygone era in that respect, and I do realise that its easy enough to brush them off at the end of a session (though how many people genuinely do based on how often I still encounter them at a deserted crag), but its something that visually I don't care much for. One could probably say the same about chalk full stop but don't think that debate is necessary

Just curious - Are you against all ticking on principal? or mainly the foot long wankfests for those too cool to admit they are nearly blind and can't actually see the holds?  (I can't think of any other reason for ticks that long.)

[i.munro]

[ Tick marks do brush off (yes I have brushed old tick marks off rock) and they do wash off in the rain (think about it, chalk is basic and rain is weakly acidic).

In which case I need serious help as I'm either hallucinating chalk & tick marks or hallucinating brushing ( a lot of brushing ) & heavy rain  during the last ten days in Bleau.

More seriously, it may well be true that chalk either can be brushed or will wash off on some rock types (although I doubt that as indoor walls struggle to shift it with a jet wash) but it categorically isn't true on sandstone! Simply try it or go out and look after rain.

[tim palmer]

I think you must be hallucinating I am afraid.
 
Just think of all those whopping tick marks you see people drawing on karma, but funnily enough when you go there the rock is utterly pristine. 

Here two pictures of a problem/boulder (opium/narcotic) which sees no direct rain but miraculously the ticks are in different places (in the smaller pic there is a tick to the small pocket, in the larger there is a tick to the crimp).




Have Oddo or Ponchon been dragging a jet cleaner into the crag?

or has someone done a bit of gentle brushing? 

[bigtuboflard]

I am probably living in a bygone era in that respect, and I do realise that its easy enough to brush them off at the end of a session (though how many people genuinely do based on how often I still encounter them at a deserted crag), but its something that visually I don't care much for. One could probably say the same about chalk full stop but don't think that debate is necessary

Just curious - Are you against all ticking on principal? or mainly the foot long wankfests for those too cool to admit they are nearly blind and can't actually see the holds?  (I can't think of any other reason for ticks that long.)

Just the foot long wank fests really. If a hold is obscured then a small mark I'll readily admit is helpful in sighting it and learning where hit. But these can be done discretely and in such a way that they're easier to brush off. It feels to me in some instances at least that it's borne out of either laziness or perhaps just seeing it done elsewhere and assuming it's the norm. I guess methods change and styles evolve and I'm stuck in the past.


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[Sasquatch]

Just the foot long wank fests really. If a hold is obscured then a small mark I'll readily admit is helpful in sighting it and learning where hit. But these can be done discretely and in such a way that they're easier to brush off. It feels to me in some instances at least that it's borne out of either laziness or perhaps just seeing it done elsewhere and assuming it's the norm. I guess methods change and styles evolve and I'm stuck in the past.

I'd agree with that.

[dave]

Ok dickheads, back to tickmarks.

The old "what's the big deal, he will have brushed them off afterwards" argument doesn't wash - rather like tickmarks in fact. You've only got to walk around most crags to see that a significant proportion of tickmarks do not get brushed off afterwards, this thread is evidence of that.

"Tickmarks get washed off in the rain" - yes and no. In heavy rain rock receiving an actual flow of water will get tickmarks washed off. Tickmarks that don't receive direct rainfall or runoff flow will not wash off, even if the rock gets wet or damp. Tickmarks under roof rarely get washed off naturally. Tickmarks on steep peak limestone crags for example often last an entire season or longer.

To actually completely brush off a tickmark on rock like grit requires a brush and some spit/water. The way people are tickmarking these day using blocks of chalk tends to leave a very thick and ingrained tick, so just brushing it dry with a brush tends to remove the unnecessary bulk of surface chalk (depositing it on the floor), but still leaves a visible tickmark.

A much better way to indicate a blind hold is with just a subtle surface finger dab of chalk, one that the next climber will probably not even notice, and will be easy to brush off.

Aside from just being lazy bad form and disrespectful to other crag users, the fact is most/plenty of tickmarks are not brushed off afterwards. Probably because if you're the type of person with such little consideration for the crag and other users  that you would use a donkey line in the first place probably means it wouldn't even occur to you to brush them off afterwards. The type of considerate user who laboriously brushes them off will probably be a minimal user of tickmarks anyway. Every time a tickmark is used there is a finite chance that the user will forget to brush it off. The only way to guarantee you won't forget to brush em off is to not use them in the first place - this should be the gold standard, and is totally acheiveable.

The other problem is that the appearance of tickmarks in high profile videos, guidebook photos, mag articles only serves to proliferate the practice, especially if we all just shrug and say "well they will have brushed them off afterwards" and nobody takes a stand to redress the balance. Anyone coming into the sport these days would read a web article, see tickmarks on every hold, and assume that it is normal procedure to rock up at the crag and indicate every single hold on your problem with a tickmark.

And for those saying it hypocritical to pour scorn on tickmarks when we all use chalk and it's no different, that's just a bollocks cop out clause. Even stevie wonder can see there's a massive difference between considerate moderate chalk use and indiscriminate donkeylining.

Rant over. Get brushing motherfuckers.

[masonwoods101]

I don't understand how people can't remember where to reach to after working a boulder problem or looking from the floor. I kept missing a hold yesterday till I stood back and thought "it's 2 inch right of that obvious natural mark on the rock...." Simple. Visualise the problem, be at one with the problem....

[bigtuboflard]

A much better way to indicate a blind hold is with just a subtle surface finger dab of chalk, one that the next climber will probably not even notice, and will be easy to brush off.

The other problem is that the appearance of tickmarks in high profile videos, guidebook photos, mag articles only serves to proliferate the practice, especially if we all just shrug and say "well they will have brushed them off afterwards" and nobody takes a stand to redress the balance. Anyone coming into the sport these days would read a web article, see tickmarks on every hold, and assume that it is normal procedure to rock up at the crag and indicate every single hold on your problem with a tickmark.

Dave, well put and a much more well structured version of what I was trying to say. I often put a small finger tip dab between me and the hold I might be aiming for, or better pick out a feature like a pebble or crease between as a sighter. But is easy to brush or dab with a beer towel to remove.

And the other part regarding it becoming common practice in the media does indeed tend to promote that its more than acceptable to do, something which shouldn't just be blindly accepted. I fully recognise that not everyone gets in to climbing purely from the enjoyment of being outdoors but thats a key factor for me and anything I can personally do to keep it that way (like bagging out litter and finger tape for example) is a minimum.

[Fiend]

Yup totally with the finger dab style.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I often put a small finger tip dab between me and the hold I might be aiming for..

Funny that, being weak, I often do the same 

Plus everything else you said 

[lagerstarfish]

lasers is the best option

no, not those pink and black things from Boreal

laser pens and such like

even just as a thought experiment

if you feel too much of a tit wedging a laser pen in a bit of bluetack or on a tripod to help you with finding a hold, then you sure as hell don't need to draw on the rock with chalk for the same reason

[andyd]

Every hand held laser I've ever used had to be pressed down to work. They'd work well with spotters I imagine. I think a better  option for those who use big 'orrible tick marks could be a trip to an optician?

[measles23]

Rock type makes a big difference too - a tick on lime is piss to brush off, but down t'churnet it's close to impossible to completely remove firmly drawn ticks, many of which also never get direct rainfall.
I think this thread makes a positive contribution to the scene - when it first started it made me reappraise what I do and I would never now go back to ticking rock, which I think is a good thing - I still like (and use) the old idea of a bit of tape instead, on account of being instantly and completely reversible..

[Fultonius]

Haha, I posted this comment on Marco Espamer's vimeo video:https://vimeo.com/125014077#comment_13157866

Well done, you have been selected as this weeks donkey-line / tick mark hall of shame featured climber. If you can climb this hard, you can do it without the stupid lines. Get a grip.

Just got a reply today:

you are absolutely right .i was wrong.probably it were not necessary so much. i will be more careful the next times. thank you to letting me think about it.

[andy_e]

Good work that man!

Some muppet had plastered every foothold at Caley in chalk over the past few weeks. It actually made the footholds much harder to see, so I couldn't get up a lot of the problems which had fallen victim (that's my excuse anyway).

[tim palmer]

Well done, you have been selected as this weeks donkey-line / tick mark hall of shame featured climber. If you can climb this hard, you can do it without the stupid lines. Get a grip.

Seeing as you have decided to speak for everyone, is that not a little rude?

Rock type makes a big difference too - a tick on lime is piss to brush off, but down t'churnet it's close to impossible to completely remove firmly drawn ticks, many of which also never get direct rainfall.

To be honest I think it is over chalking in general which is the problem at Churnet, wrights rock is a terrible mess.

[andyd]

Yep. I think you've just echoed what another guy said two days before you;  :thumbsdown:just with a little less class.

[Fultonius]

I was in a bit of a sour mood and also somehow had missed the first post. Could have worded it better.

[measles23]

down t'churnet it's close to impossible to completely remove firmly drawn ticks, many of which also never get direct rainfall.

As if to make my point, this 2ft beaut on the nose problem at Gentleman's, visible from the main path - just no need..

[benno]

I'm not sure that this is all about... If you can't remember where the footholds are for two moves, maybe Font slabs aren't your thing? As far the ones one the top of the thing... NO SHIT.

[SA Chris]

Those top ones are pretty terrible. Not sure what is hold and what is non-hold.

[mr chaz]

That is pretty idiotic... Maybe its to make it harder? So many tickmarks, not enough holds

[dave]

https://twitter.com/Planetmountain/status/601743300526215168

[slackline]

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Crag X was such a mess today.

Sorry of you've fessed up to these elsewhere, ahem, but I think they're not the same ones. ...What? 







This is just a selection. footless S' Egg problems, Hulk, S'man, JR - footholds and handholds. Clearly not all by the same person.