[Bonjoy]

When the government decides we can have a day off for the royal wedding it doesn't damage the economy. But when public workers decide to strike for a day it costs the UK economy half a billion.

I think the royal wedding was quoted as one of the reasons (excuses) for the poor GDP figures for Q2 last year.

Hmmm, I wonder what Georgie boy will be blaming the next lot of shit figures on 

[Fultonius]

To be honest, I think hit's pretty harsh cutting back public sector pensions for the majority of public sector workers. They are generous compared to the private sector, but I think the place they should be hitting is the massively overpaid public sector "executives" who get paid ludicrous sums of money and often get a nice wee promotion 2 years before retiral to boost their final salary pensions...

There's so much waste (PFI schemes, bureaucracy etc. etc.) that should be tackled first.

One point my uncle, a uni professor, has made (which is linked, albeit slightly indirectly) is that with the increase in tuition fees AND the reduction in pensions, it's going to make it pretty financially crippling to study for 3/4 years, then do a PHD all before earning a penny. The at the end your pension gets hammered too...

Am I wrong in thinking whole pension idea is fvcked anyway, is it relies on indefinite GDP growth? (Which, itself is unsustainable and undesirable...)

[Ru]

Hmmm, I wonder what Georgie boy will be blaming the next lot of shit figures on 

He should be blaming it on the fact that even in the good years real growth was less than 2% once you strip out the growth that was fuelled by public and private sector overborrowing. Add in a global recession and we were fucked well before you consider whether the austerity measures have had a negative effect on the economy. Plan A isn't working mainly because there's a good chance that no plan will work. Ed Balls kicks up a good stink but goes strangely silent when the economic realities of any alternative strategy are put to him. The austerity measures are predicated on the fact that if we don't have them our gilt prices will fall through the floor and we'll spiral into bankruptcy (gilt prices being inversely proportional to yield). There's a good argument that the only reason that this isn't happening anyway is because our gilts are currently seen as safer than Europe's. If the Euro goes under, and there's a good chance it will, then the negative effect on out growth is likely to be so severe that there will be no possible way out, and then on top of that the bond yields will shoot up as the chance of default increases. If you really want to depress yourself read this:

http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/Tim_Morgan_Report_007.pdf

[IanP]

To be honest, I think hit's pretty harsh cutting back public sector pensions for the majority of public sector workers. They are generous compared to the private sector, but I think the place they should be hitting is the massively overpaid public sector "executives" who get paid ludicrous sums of money and often get a nice wee promotion 2 years before retiral to boost their final salary pensions...

Emotionally attractive (and excessive top salaries certainly have an impact on people's view of fairness) but in actuality the number of people earning really high salaries is probably smaller than you think.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8151355.stm,

Approx £45k would put you in the top 10% of earners, £59k the top 5% and only 1% earn more than £120k.

[Oldmanmatt]

At the Royal Devon and Exeter hospital, the junior admin staff are being given an effective 20% pay cut and 30% redundency. The clinical consultants, campaigned for a 3% cut in their OWN salaries; which would have saved the trust more. However, the trust management would have had to take a pay cut if the consultants did...
So, the junior admin staff take it where the sun don't shine; the consultants now share one secretary between 3 and the management have a 4% pay rise (in order to attract and maintain the highest caliber of management (their words)).
I'm only surprised these are strikes, not riots. The media has glossed over the public sector cuts and it is always the bottom of the rung who take the shite...

[Fultonius]

To be honest, I think hit's pretty harsh cutting back public sector pensions for the majority of public sector workers. They are generous compared to the private sector, but I think the place they should be hitting is the massively overpaid public sector "executives" who get paid ludicrous sums of money and often get a nice wee promotion 2 years before retiral to boost their final salary pensions...

Emotionally attractive (and excessive top salaries certainly have an impact on people's view of fairness) but in actuality the number of people earning really high salaries is probably smaller than you think.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8151355.stm,

Approx £45k would put you in the top 10% of earners, £59k the top 5% and only 1% earn more than £120k.

Just started reading the  Hutton report into public sector pay, and, well, all I can say is that if the government followed his advice things would improve significantly!

I still think that final salary pensions that allow you to jump grade 2 years before retiring are an absolute farce. I'd happily leave the contributions as they are as long as lifetime salary-linked pensions were brought in.

[slackline]

Just started reading the  Hutton report into public sector pay, and, well, all I can say is that if the government followed his advice things would improve significantly!

  When have any government in the last 20 or so years ever listened to the results of reports they commission (vis. Prof Nutt debacle)?  As long as they are seen to have commissioned a report its sufficient to placate the populace and they can (and will) do whatever the fuck they want.

[namnok]

well the fuckers just cost my company £300 in staff wages and diesel cos we cant get our deliveries done. 2nd attempt at delivering in manc town may flush more money we havent got down the drain.

[north_country_boy]

When the government decides we can have a day off for the royal wedding it doesn't damage the economy. But when public workers decide to strike for a day it costs the UK economy half a billion.

I think the royal wedding was quoted as one of the reasons (excuses) for the poor GDP figures for Q2 last year.

Hmmm, I wonder what Georgie boy will be blaming the next lot of shit figures on 

It's ok, he has an excuse for another year, as there is the Jubilee coming up next year 

[psychomansam]

Adjusting for inflation, teachers have now paid in £46,000,000,000 (£46 billion) more than had been paid out.

The government has given that money to the private sector to run services ineffectively, has used it to prop up the banks, and now wants more money from us to raise it's profits off our pensions and continue to support the destructive banking system, multinational corps and privatisation of public services.

They've thrown away £46,000,000,000  of our pensions into the private sector and now they want more.

And they have the Fucking cheek to say the private sector is propping us up.

Cunts.

[webbo]

I am on strike today because when I started as a student nurse 25 years ago I signed a contract offering me a final salary pension scheme. Which stated if I paid x amount of my salary I would get x amount when I retired.
Now someone is trying to change those terms without my agreement.
If I signed a contract to buy something which said I would pay a £100 for 3 years then they suddenly decided I had to pay £200 for 5 years. I could take them to court.
The nhs pension scheme is cash rich so the increase in contributions is just being used to bail out other areas of economy.

[slackline]

Interesting, what figures have you based these calculations on?

How long a period are you accounting for?  1980-present will be very different from 1970-present.

Do teachers/public sector workers/etc. have to take the pension offered by their employer or have they always had the opportunity/choice to not pay into it and instead invest the money into a personal pension (obviously anyone can do so in addition to any pension offered by their employer).

[webbo]

Who are you replying to.

[slackline]

I was questioning psychomansam and the £46billion figure.

And for yourself, if its breach of contract has anyone actually tried taking their employers to court for breaking the contract yet?

[webbo]

ok.
But to answer your other question you could opt out of the nhs scheme.Lots of staff were advised to in the first heady days of financial advisors.However this was found to be wrong advise and they were allowed to rejoin the scheme and paid conpensation( I'm not sure by who )

[Fultonius]

I am on strike today because when I started as a student nurse 25 years ago I signed a contract offering me a final salary pension scheme. Which stated if I paid x amount of my salary I would get x amount when I retired.
Now someone is trying to change those terms without my agreement.
If I signed a contract to buy something which said I would pay a £100 for 3 years then they suddenly decided I had to pay £200 for 5 years. I could take them to court.
The nhs pension scheme is cash rich so the increase in contributions is just being used to bail out other areas of economy.

Just got a text from orange today:

Hi from Orange. We're increasing the price of your monthly plan by 4.38% from 8 January 2012. For more information please visit....

[SA Chris]

The choices everyone at our work were provided with at work were a) agree to revised pension scheme b) submit resignation letter. Quite a few people with 30+ years service chose b) in order to keep their FSP. I never had the option so it didn't bother me.

There were some unhappy faces for a while, but everyone realised the reality of it being unsustainable in the current economic climate so they lived with it.

[slackline]

ok.
But to answer your other question you could opt out of the nhs scheme.Lots of staff were advised to in the first heady days of financial advisors.However this was found to be wrong advise and they were allowed to rejoin the scheme and paid conpensation( I'm not sure by who )

Presumably those who gave the poor advice paid the compensation?

As mentioned above aren't all pensions based on speculation and the assumption that growth increases all the time?  I'm sure I read some caveat in the stuff about my pension that I could choose for it to be invested in high or low risk investments, but regardless there was the possibility that the end value may be less than the amount I paid in



Time for a new phone contract Fultonious?  Or are you just going to go on strike and not use your phone?

There were some unhappy faces for a while, but everyone realised the reality of it being unsustainable in the current economic climate so they lived with it.

The 'current climate' certainly hasn't helped matters, but the fact is that it was unsustainable anyway given that life expectancies in the UK have increased by 10 years over the last 40.  Pensions designed to be taken at 65 and paid out for 5-10 years just aren't going to cover an extra 5-10 years that people are now living, especially given inflation continually pushes the cost of living upwards.

[rich d]

I never understand the public vs private debate. Some people are show an almost religious zeal in their hatred/jealousy of public or private sector counter parts. As a private sector worker I wish I had a good pension to moan about and a chance of a pay rise. All in my company have been on wage freezes for 2 years alongside a recruitment freeze. This doesn't make me think that all teachers/nurses/ambulance drivers are lazy cunts who don't know which side their bread is buttered. It makes me think that I wish I had some power to change the current situation. It does make me dislike the politicians even more though - didn't they recently increase their pension schemes? as always it's the hypocrisy that sticks in my throat and the fact that it makes no difference who any of us vote for. I think we're all fucked for the next 5 years. After that who knows? We may have to accept that as the west becomes less well off compared to newer more vibrant and younger economies our relative living standards will start to slide.   

[galpinos]

The choices everyone at our work were provided with at work were a) agree to revised pension scheme b) submit resignation letter. Quite a few people with 30+ years service chose b) in order to keep their FSP. I never had the option so it didn't bother me.

There were some unhappy faces for a while, but everyone realised the reality of it being unsustainable in the current economic climate so they lived with it.

The difference with the public pension pot is it gets raided by all and sundry to pay for private companies to deliver shite public services. If the public pension pot was protected, there is would be sustainable (or there abouts). In addition to this, wrt teachers they went through all this in 2008, increased their contributions and length of service, reduced the value of their pension at the end of it, we told that it was now all fine and 3 years later they'rer being told they have to do it all again!

I don't believe striking is right in this case but I have a lot of sympathy for their cause. People whinging that they have a shit deal in the private sector so so should everyone else gets on my tits.

(I am a private sector worker on a shite defined contribution scheme as a point of reference/bias)

[tomtom]

I am on strike today because when I started as a student nurse 25 years ago I signed a contract offering me a final salary pension scheme. Which stated if I paid x amount of my salary I would get x amount when I retired.
Now someone is trying to change those terms without my agreement.
If I signed a contract to buy something which said I would pay a £100 for 3 years then they suddenly decided I had to pay £200 for 5 years. I could take them to court.
The nhs pension scheme is cash rich so the increase in contributions is just being used to bail out other areas of economy.

Nail. Head. Hit.

I've been busy non-striking today, so not had the chance to respond, but frankly I'm surprised at the response of some of the people here - who seem to have been taken in by the Government spin on this. Look at the numbers.... (Slackers I expected better of a man of logic! )

Public sector pensions ARE sustainable, with the increased payments and increased retirement age agreed in a deal a couple of years ago. They have (had) been 'future proofed' by being related to CPI instead of RPI (may have got that the wrong way round but hey ho!), increasing payments and delaying the retirement age (in the case of teachers from 60 to 65). This was all agreed/done/dusted moaned about but accepted.... Then THIS government have come along and UNILATERALLY decided to up the employee contributions AND increase the retirement age again. FFS, this is equivalent to everyone in the public sector getting a 3%+ tax rise... its SCANDLOUS....

My pension (Academics) has had the retirement age raised to 66, employee contributions raised by 1.5%, related to CPI not RPI and is now career average instead of final salary. Its not as good as what I started with, but OK, fair enough - I'm not dumb enough or greedy enough to think I'm going to get something for nothing. This has been (largely) agreed.. My pension is managed by an indepenent trust set up especially for that purpose..... here's the rub - its NOT the Govt pocket which is the case for teachers et al...

I simply cannot believe that people out there think that the re-negotiated pensions are 'unsustainable'.... FFS! 


edit - sorry - not meaning to tar everyone with the same brush.. just having a rant had to keept the radio off most of today, it was making me grr....

[slackline]

But do the government ever ring-post their income from one area for that specific area?

E.g. Does all income from road tax and fuel duty get plied back into Highway maintenance?  Does all of the tax from fags go back into the NHS to cover the increased burden of cancer and heart disease that occurs?

Isn't balancing fiddling the books so that they even out whats done by consecutive governments on all fronts?

[tomtom]

But do the government ever ring-post their income from one area for that specific area?

E.g. Does all income from road tax and fuel duty get plied back into Highway maintenance?  Does all of the tax from fags go back into the NHS to cover the increased burden of cancer and heart disease that occurs?

Isn't balancing fiddling the books so that they even out whats done by consecutive governments on all fronts?

[galpinos]

But do the government ever ring-post their income from one area for that specific area?

If not, then are you happy for the public sector wages to be taxed more than the private sector at source?

I don't see why the public sector should pay more tax than me?

[Fultonius]

OK, I put my hands up!  I've got to be perfectly honest and say - I'm not that up to speed on the current situation (i.e. I thought this was just another bun fight over the previous change to pension contributions etc.).

If, Tomtom, like you say - the 1.5% increase and age 66 retirement age etc. etc. are sustainable (link anyone?). Then...I'm with you - the government should go and fuck themselves!

All this chat about the public sector "pension purse" being robbed of £46billion sounds a bit far fetched, but if you have a link, hit me with it!

I'm going to go home and cry into my 5% contributory pension scheme that will probably evaporate if the global economy doesn't fix itself soon...