[douglas]

I would like some advice, please.

Basically I see myself as a weak climber. Naturally I'm tall and skinny. My core is pretty strong considering how long my legs are but I lack strength for brute moves / manly climbing... So I have been seriously thinking about joining a gym and using weights to address areas that I think would benefit from being stronger. Gym would be 3x per week, outdoor rock climbing at the weekend and fingerboarding during the week. 12 weeks of this then back to normal, which is a a mix of bouldering, PE routes, and system training.

I am 193cm / 6 foot 4, 72kg / 11st 5 (BMI = 19.3), have climbed about 7C/7C+ in Cave and 8a on bolts. I can do a one armer from just more than 90 degrees to just less than 90 degrees. I struggle with wide moves and bad feet, static moves, one armed moves, open moves, cross throughs... etc. So I figure I need a stronger back, sides, shoulders and arms.

Exercises I have been considering are deadlifts, weighted pulls ups, dumbell flys, barbell rows, bench press and power clean. Are these appropriate? I realise there is some leg work there but it's likely to drop off me when I finish (muscle tends to do that!).

Have you done something like this? Did it work? Would you recommend it? I'd be really grateful for any thoughts on this as I've really struggled to find any info on the subject yet I'm convinced many strong climbers have pulled or pushed weights at some point...

Thanks!

[tomtom]

I'm interested in this - and responses you get, as I'm of similar build (inch shorter) and "slightly" (1/2 stone) heavier.. but have only climbed 7B+ (once..)...

I've kind of given up on getting more brute strength (e.g. one armers etc..) as this just seems to hurt tendons and not really make me climb any better... I have made gains by improving core and finger strength (deadhangs etc..) but have got to the point where I think my body geomettry just isnt suited to being burly, and to instead work on my lank strengths

Then again, I was chatting to FallingDown the other weekend and he was saying how deadlifting had really helped build up his core/shoulders and improved on shoulder stability...

<edit> I am bone idle..

[slackline]

Why not build core stength with front-levers and planches?  Cheaper than joining a gym as all you need is a pull-up bar (or finger-board if you're a beast) and some floor space.

[Richie Crouch]

Quite interested in this also, as I've just been going the gym for the last 3 weeks twice a week doing sets of low reps on heavy weights for upper body strength just below 1 rep max.

I don't know how long it takes for things to have an effect on your climbing (if at all) but it has been a nice change from getting sore fingers and shut down in wet and humid conditions.

I'm not too far off your height/weight and think having better overall body strength and working muscle groups which wouldn't be overly taxed whilst climbing is probably a good thing to avoid postural imbalance..etc? I'm no expert though and would be keen to hear off someone who has done a prolonged period of weight training alongside climbing.

[shark]

I have been surprised to read recently the extent that weights are increasingly used in a range of sports that you wouldn't think would be beneficial such as distance running. I think weights are good if you don't get addicted to them to the extent of doing them to the detriment of more obviously useful stuff.

Where they are especially useful is for hitting muscle groups which you know are weak, full body exercises which transmit power through the whole system especially the core ( ie deadlifts, power cleans, clean and jerk) and general conditioning to prevent typical climber inbalances (Bolton complex) and as a way of shocking the body by doing something different.

The only person I can think of who was big into weights then got into climbing is Alex Fry. He was and is beastly strong but doesnt do weights now probably because he will always have that strength base and isn't the thing that is holding him back. I have picked up from forum comment that "Blackpool Sam" is a serious weight lifter so it would interesting to know his story.

My current thinking is that heavy weights is something best to do off-season or for occasional periods rather than something to do for a prolonged period alongside climbing althougth light weight dumb bell complexes I see as more complementary.

[Fultonius]

I think your plan sounds ideal, for you.

I'm a similar height and have recently steadily dropped down to 75/76Kg from about 80Kg.  I've just done my first F8a and plan to do another soon, although, the hardest I've bouldered is 7B+ but that's more down to me just being technically a bit rubbish.

I've always done a bit of gym work from when I was about 14, used to play rugby, race mtbs downhill etc. so I've always been bigger built and fairly "strong". In fact, any time I get up something that my mates can't I just get accused of "being strong".

I struggle for finger strength, but not often "upper body strength".

Keep the reps low, weights high and I think it'll do you a fair bit of good. Like you say, when you revert back to eating f'all and climbing all the time, any unnecessary muscle will disappear again.

[Big Dave]

I've been combining weight training and climbing for nearly 20 years, hard to say if it makes you a better climber or not compared with going climbing lots as technique plays a major part of course.

I would say that weight training is great for overall strength and fitness which can be beneficial for any sport.

I stick to the main compound moves using free weights (barbells / dumbells), gym machines are nowhere near as good and forget about the fad routines you see in Mens health etc

If you want to get stronger, then progressive resistance is what you need, start light and get your form correct and increase the weight gradually each week. Have a deload week or 2 every 6-8 weeks.

When I say compound moves, I use the following and nothing else apart from a few curls here and there.

Deadlift
Squat
Bench press
Bent over row
Pull ups (weighted)
Dips (weighted)
Overhead press

[boulderingbacon]

I think weights are a bit counter productive to climbing power because most of what your going to doing is pushing weights where as climbing is all about hard you can pull. You would find weighted pull ups and campussing far more beneficial to power training than any weights. I'm a fairly big lad and I can assure you the last thing you want is excess muscle to lug up a bit of rock.

[Serpico]

Gym would be 3x per week, outdoor rock climbing at the weekend and fingerboarding during the week. 12 weeks of this then back to normal, which is a a mix of bouldering, PE routes, and system training.

I am 193cm / 6 foot 4, 72kg / 11st 5 (BMI = 19.3), have climbed about 7C/7C+ in Cave and 8a on bolts. I can do a one armer from just more than 90 degrees to just less than 90 degrees.

I think what you're proposing would be a disaster for you. Being able to do a one armer, and bouldering 7C/+, but only 8a on bolts clearly shows that you've got strong fingers, arms, shoulders and core, but that your efficiency of movement is by comparison poor. If you drop the amount of climbing you do this will only get worse. If you feel you're weak on a specific type of move, and you've got access to a system board then that's the way to go.
I'd recommend weight training, but never instead of climbing. Get yourself a bar and some dumbbells and do 2 sessions a week at home after you've been out climbing. Try Deadlifts, Overhead Squats, Pullups, and Dumbell Chest press.

[Nibile]

what Serpico says makes sense. but we're not as clever as to follow a good advice, aren't we.
so, weights.
I found the best for me is doing only twice a week. three times is too much for me. in the summer months I've done weights mon-wed, and fingerboarding tue-thur, often double daily sessions. I use supplements also, aminoacids and sodium-calcium-potassium.
in the years I've stripped down my weights routine. we are climbers not body builders.
so I go there, I do an easy warm up, then I do just two easy sets of ten reps for pecs on the bench.
then I do one armed lat machine, 4 sets of 5 moves. terrible for the elbows.
then (assisted) one armers on the pull up bar, 4 sets of 3. much better than the lat machine.
then one armed pulley machine, 4 sets of 6-7. hard.
then shoulder raises, 3 sets of 9-10.
then military press machine, 3 sets of 7-8.
then triceps, cable extension, 4 sets of 10.
then bicep curls, 4 sets of 7-8.
so, lots of pulling, little pushing (but triceps fixed my elbow problems!!!).

I love doing weights. my bigger problem is that most of my muscles are stronger then my tendons, so it's hard/dangerous for me to go really big.

[Fultonius]

On re-reaidng this thread, I think maybe I jumped the gun! As Serpico says, if you can do 7C/+ then you're probably strong enough for most F8cs!  I gues it really depends what you're actually aiming to do?

I'd recommend weight training, but never instead of climbing. Get yourself a bar and some dumbbells and do 2 sessions a week at home after you've been out climbing. Try Deadlifts, Overhead Squats, Pullups, and Dumbell Chest press.

 

[douglas]

Thank you all for the replies. They have made me think.

8a for me could be a bit of a misnomer, I haven't really tried hard on routes for a year or so. I think my movement is not all that bad and I can only do a tiny one-armer, not a full one-armer.

I realise the importance of climbing movement so have been focussed more on getting a good volume of moves under my belt and am not really interested in seiges. However, I do find bouldering much easier than routes, it's less effort, my PE for routes is poor, I overgrip above bolts, and climb too slowly through long sequences, I can only OS 7a+ in the UK...

This I know I need to get better at but I am only intending to lift weights for 12 weeks, and during that time I will still climb a couple of times a week, so will this time spent in the gym actually be detrimental in the long-term? As I see it I will only be sacrificing indoor bouldering, which is useless for movement training anyway. And as a return I will be making the physical gains equivalent to 12 months of bouldering (<- that's a guess).

Am I disillusioned? Are weights not what a skinny climber like me needs? Thanks again.

[Paul B]

Am I disillusioned? Are weights not what a skinny climber like me needs? Thanks again.

I'd say so yes, 3 months in the gym = 12 months physical gains in bouldering?

More seriously, I'm a skinny climber and I've flirted with weights a fair few times now. Mainly it came about due to large injuries that kept me away from climbing but since then probably because I got a little bored and weights showed almost instant progress.

I found them useful for balancing out my back and chest but I've always climbed my best (or strongest) in my least balanced shape which I revert to as my focus shifts back to dedicated climbing (i.e. my chest quickly disappears).

I can completely understand Shark using weights to fight off back problems and Serpico due to his muscles wasting away from getting older but for climbing strength gains can't you find another way?  I hate to get too gym jones about this but is weight training "Functional training (high degree of transferability)" for climbing? Sometimes indoor climbing in itself (currently, to me anyway) seems like its an overly simplified useless imitation of the real thing.

There are tonnes of more dedicated climbing exercises and more closely related ways to train (IMO).

I'd stop worrying about one-armers too, they mean nothing.

Also, apart from "getting stronger for manly climbing" I can't really work out what it is you're looking ti improve at? If its routes other points of your posts stand out (poor PE, head issues etc.).

[mrjonathanr]

Sounds like you're quite a strong boulderer, but want to get better at climbing routes. Which might help more do you suppose, lifting weights in a gym, or endurance training on a board and leading things?

[AJM]

I've never really done any especially serious weights work, but it does seem odd that you have a good idea of what holds you back on routes and are deliberating a training plan which directly addresses none of them - better p-e and a better lead head and things seem more what you should work on - why are you thinking about weights in the first place? I'm a bit confused...

[ghisino]

i'd be keen doing some weights next week.

it's not really that i need them hard (or maybe yes?), the main point is doing somthing thats high-impact while resting a dodgy finger (nothing huge but i've trained through moderate pain for about 4 weeks, so i think it needs some time to recover properly)

the problem in my specific case is that on one side more pulling ability would be welcomed, on the other i have to avoid "tight" biceps as my shoulders would get dodgy again in that case.

any weight guru willing to give advice on this?

[douglas]

Thanks again for the advice and thoughts. The note on the partial one armer was more to give a general indication of poor upper body strength.

My goals are mainly boulder based at the moment. I want to climb the big problems in The Cave, Trigger Cut, Clyde, Pit of Hell, Lou Ferrino, Broken Heart, Greenheart, Wire, etc... For this I just think I need to get stronger in a way that would take an age by normal climbing. After that I'll get back into routes. Routes are my real passion but I'm thinking in the long term. To me it's better to get strong for a year or two, then get back into routes. In a year or two of bouldering, would 3 months of gym work really be amiss?

(I'm not trying to wind people up with this but I really am very undecided!) And it worked for Malc so why won't it work for everyone else?

[Serpico]

The note on the partial one armer was more to give a general indication of poor upper body strength.

I took that as an indicator of excellent upper body strength - Ondra can't do one, and it hasn't held him back.

And it worked for Malc so why won't it work for everyone else?

You're completely ignoring the massive amount of climbing that Malc did.

[tomtom]

Thanks again for the advice and thoughts. The note on the partial one armer was more to give a general indication of poor upper body strength.

My goals are mainly boulder based at the moment. I want to climb the big problems in The Cave, Trigger Cut, Clyde, Pit of Hell, Lou Ferrino, Broken Heart, Greenheart, Wire, etc... For this I just think I need to get stronger in a way that would take an age by normal climbing. After that I'll get back into routes. Routes are my real passion but I'm thinking in the long term. To me it's better to get strong for a year or two, then get back into routes. In a year or two of bouldering, would 3 months of gym work really be amiss?

(I'm not trying to wind people up with this but I really am very undecided!) And it worked for Malc so why won't it work for everyone else?

The way I've got to do the problems I want to do, that are way to hard for me, is to keep on trying them - repeated failure eventually builds up the strength, core whatever you need..

[Paul B]

You're completely ignoring the massive amount of climbing that Malc did.

Board problems - "another one that only he [malc] can do..."

What is this normal climbing thats being spoken of? If the progression you're looking for seems unrealistic in a given time frame (I'm not saying it is), then I think you're searching for a quick fix (which doesn't exist). This time in the form of a dumbbell.

Also, having an imbalance towards general strength can be catastrophic for your fingers even if you think they're made of steel (being injured consistenly for years is much more depressing than gains coming slowly).

[shark]

The note on the partial one armer was more to give a general indication of poor upper body strength.

I took that as an indicator of excellent upper body strength - Ondra can't do one, and it hasn't held him back.

If doing a one armer from just more than 90 degrees to just less than 90 degrees is an indicator of excellent upper body strength then I must be a god 

[Richie Crouch]

I reckon you would get quite a few of those problems you list done without any weight training and just lots of trying hard indoors on steep boards/roofs inbetween cave sessions. i.e. Broken, Lou F, Trigger, Pit of...

You sound like your in a similar way to me feeling weak most of the time and wanting to get quick strength gains to tick through things in the cave without years of redpoint failure gradually getting closer each time!

I imagine doing lots of hard circuit training would work better for the longer cave links as well as time in there but weights are fun 

[Rocksteady]

For my weight (around 70kg), I've usually been quite strong lifting weights when I've got into them, which is a couple of times over the years.

However, I haven't found that this strength translates usefully to climbing at all. Most of the time I can do at least one one-armer with either on a bar or a jug but I can't climb Fb7A. My fingers are always getting injured.
edit: a further thought, I can't see how bench press helps for climbing at all. I used to love benching and got relatively strong but these muscles are in opposition to climbing muscles for most moves. I can see how Pec Flye would be useful for clamping compression problems though.

But every person's different. If you have steely fingers and core but feel weak on compression problems or locking off maybe weights will sort you out.

Focus on compound exercises mentioned above: deadlifts, squats, overhead press, pulldowns, rows.
Try to correct any imbalances from climbing.

Start light and make sure you practice perfect form - I'd do this for a month before you start lifting for strength.

[abarro81]

Being towards the other end of the spectrum of body strength vs finger strength (i.e. stacked and ripped like Arnie can only dream of, and almost always better at big beefy moves on steep things than anything involving a small hold), I have no idea about whether you should do weights or not. I would agree with Serpico about not replacing climbing sessions with them though. If you do want to do them, just stop your normal session at the wall 30min early and do 30min weights - if you normally do 2hr boulder session, do 1.30 then pump some iron and inject steroids into your eyeballs. No need to ditch the whole climbing session.

my PE for routes is poor
...and climb too slowly through long sequences

I want to climb the big problems in The Cave, Trigger Cut, Clyde, Pit of Hell, Lou Ferrino, Broken Heart, Greenheart, Wire, etc... 

You might want to look at addressing your poor PE and learning to climb long sequences quickly, since a lot of those problems are long PE sequences...


This next part is all a bit  but I think is worth putting in given your stated long term goal of being good at routes.

Routes are my real passion but I'm thinking in the long term. To me it's better to get strong for a year or two, then get back into routes. In a year or two of bouldering, would 3 months of gym work really be amiss?

Watch out with this - you may never return to the routes. It's how I (and many others) got from trad to sport, and then got hooked and never went back. You see people make the same transition into bouldering.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of the route skills - not overgripping above bolts, reducing redpoint nerves, working sequences off a rope, working sequences off awkwardly placed bolts, reading sequences quickly on onsights, knowing when to rest and when to press on, knowing when to listen to beta and when to sack it off and trust your instinct on flashes etc. Yes, all the best sport climbers can boulder hard, but a lot of people who can boulder hard struggle way more than they should (given their strength, PE and stam) when you make them tie in. This is less relevant if you have big background in route climbing, but it's worth thinking about. Dave Mac always talks about maintaining being much easier than letting something go completely and then having to get it back, and I think this applies to skills as well as physical stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you shouldn't focus on bouldering if you're naturally better at stam stuff, just not to let the routes slide completely for such a long period of time. I feel rusty after a few months without tying in - I can't imagine what it would be like after a few years! Don't forget, short bouldery/PE redpointing can be good training for getting strong, not all routes will make you weak!

Also, note that sometimes strength gains in bouldering can take a while to apply to routes if you've not been routing whilst making the gains. When I moved to Sheffield I bouldered almost exclusively for the first winter, when I got back into routes that spring I was shocked by how I didn't feel that much stronger than before on routes. It took until that summer for the gains to come through with a rope on. I know Hickish has found this before as well, though I think the more times you make the transfer from boulders to routes the more your body learns to transfer the gains quickly..

[chris_j_s]

Also, note that sometimes strength gains in bouldering can take a while to apply to routes if you've not been routing whilst making the gains. When I moved to Sheffield I bouldered almost exclusively for the first winter, when I got back into routes that spring I was shocked by how I didn't feel that much stronger than before on routes. It took until that summer for the gains to come through with a rope on. I know Hickish has found this before as well, though I think the more times you make the transfer from boulders to routes the more your body learns to transfer the gains quickly..

Great answer.

I'm interested in the above though - why exactly is this because it confuses the fuck out of me that I'm bouldering V9 at some bouldering centres and V7/V8 even in places I think the grading is tough and doing plenty of circuit work for PE, yet I still struggle on individual moves when I get onto 7b+ routes?

I don't manage to get on routes of this grade very often (due to my usual climbing partner climbing mostly lower grades) but the moves can't be that hard can they?!?

Apologies for the thread hijack by the way