[Plattsy]

Opportunism? Blatant robbery? Criminal intent rather than social disorder? Probably yes to all three, but at the root of all this is (IMHO) no future for many of those involved...

No EMA, no chance of a free higher education and a way out, no jobs, no youth clubs and/or youth schemes... What else is there to do other than hang about get drunk/smashed, cause a bit of trouble..? Then the Feds pants are down as they're severely over stretched and it's freebie time on the high street.. A chance to get something back 'tax back' as one looter put it...

I'm not saying it's right or making excuses, just that I can see why it's come to a head. Tbh, I thought this kind of thing may have happened in a year or two's time when it all started to bite more..

They're not anarchists, not protestors, they are criminals (in wider society) - but I bet most of them are just kids with nothing better to do, nothing to look forward to and have probably had one of the best 'laughs' they've had in years...

Grim stuff, compelling to watch it unfold yesterday on 24 hr news, horrible at the same time.

I see what you're getting at, but why is it "better" for these idiots to do this than hang around getting pissed/smashed as they normally do?

They're just shitting on their own door-step.

Who said it was better? This has happened before and it will happen again. Cut services, jobs etc etc give the tinderbox a spark and it kicks off. This time though the rioters can organise themselves unlike the past using BBM and Twitter which competes with the police own communication network.

Because they don't give a shit about their own door step....... obviously.

I agree with TT.

[slackline]

Who said it was better?

They're not anarchists, not protestors, they are criminals (in wider society) - but I bet most of them are just kids with nothing better to do, nothing to look forward to and have probably had one of the best 'laughs' they've had in years...

Because they don't give a shit about their own door step....... obviously.

Or other human beings, this is fucking disgusting, the lowest of the low scum bag fucking wankers....

[Oldmanmatt]

Slack, everything you say is true.
I don't support the bastards one little bit!

But...

Let me paint a picture.
I'm white, middleclass, but I'll bet it's not far off the truth.

Imagine...

Your grandparents came to the UK from Nigeria (or pick your own ex-colony). They were Muslim as were your parents, you don't give a toss about religion but your name is Ahmed...
You did well at school, but, everyone keeps telling you the only reason you got all those A*'s is because the exams are worthless these days....
You can't go on to university or college because theres no places, no money and your name is Ahmed.
You're Black and called Ahmed, you must be a either a Gangbanger or a terrorist, because the papers say so.

Shit, I worry what the future holds for my kids. I worry that my degrees and experience as an engineer will not be enough to provide for my old age.

No, people should not be given everything.
But,
They should be given the opportunity to earn "Things" including respect.

Right now, that ain't happening.

This happened because the idiots are running the show, on the streets and in Parliament.

We can't control the idiots, because there are not enough police and who's fault is that?

And if there were enough and they had stamped on it hard and early?

Then they would have been the "Brutal, Big brother society"!

[slackline]

Well they won't be getting any more respect acting like fucking cunts will they?

Universal condemnation is all I can see.  People might have ideas as to why its happening (yourself, TT and platsy) but that doesn't in anyway justify it.

[Fultonius]

Slackers, I don't anyone is trying to justify it, or doesn't think it's disgusting. But just condemning it, or trying "stamp it out" by police force isn't going to fix the underlying issues that lead to this kind of event.

[tomtom]

Well they won't be getting any more respect acting like fucking cunts will they?

Universal condemnation is all I can see.  People might have ideas as to why its happening (yourself, TT and platsy) but that doesn't in anyway justify it.

Sadly they'll probably get more respect from their peers.. You're right in that there is no justifcation but there are explanations as to why it may happen.

I'm not sure this is relevant but my riot experiences..

I was part of the poll tax riot generation. My mates all went up to peacefully demonstrate.. I think I was (19 or so) and being sick as I'd had too much beer the night before.. So didn't go. 4-5 of my friends went (for protest not trouble reasons) didn't get 'involved' but were chased, thwacked at with a truncheon, witnessed all sorts - and for them it was scary but really exciting....

July 1995, Leeds. Hyde park area, the Feds busted the pub 'little park' which was a dealers heaven, local riot ensued cars burnt, chases, stones thrown, pub raised to the ground. I lived two streets away, just barricaded myself inside. friend watched his car torched outside the house...

May 2003, Minneapolis. College hockey team won the league (shrugs) and local students went mental, set fire to bins cars etc.. I was staying there with a kiwi (Murray) who I'd just met and we hid around street corners and dodged the plastic bullets (seriously) had a couple of beers, watched some more and went home...

[Falling Down]

Tbh, I thought this kind of thing may have happened in a year or two's time when it all started to bite more..

IMHO that's because this has nothing to do with Tory driven public and local authority spending cuts.  This is a much deeper malaise that's been developing for years.

[slackline]

Slackers, I don't anyone is trying to justify it, or doesn't think it's disgusting. But just condemning it, or trying "stamp it out" by police force isn't going to fix the underlying issues that lead to this kind of event.

Which seem to be a flaring up after a peaceful protest based on ambiguous reports surrounding the Duggan shooting followed by opportunism in light of over-stretched police/fire services as far as I can tell.

The "disaffected" were in the same state the day before as they will be after things have died down, all they've done is see an opportunity and taken it.  Thats not to say the points being made about being disenchanted about future prospects/seeing no future aren't true, but its not why they've jumped on this opportunity, although may in part explain why they see it as a (very short-term) opportunity to get something for nothing.

EDIT : Random blog-post with thoughts (although its stretching it a bit far saying the whole country is burning).


Anyway, work to do today.

[tomtom]

Tbh, I thought this kind of thing may have happened in a year or two's time when it all started to bite more..

IMHO that's because this has nothing to do with Tory driven public and local authority spending cuts.  This is a much deeper malaise that's been developing for years.

Yes, that's quite true.. Though have the recent cuts in services (ESP ema) pushed things over an edge? Maybe thats the fine line of political decisions.. Maybe its not and it was always going to happen. The whole 'facing years of austerity doom and gloom etc..' would have happened with any govt IMHO..

I really really hope this causes society to have a look at itself and inner city yoof again, rather than just give the police water cannons and armoured trucks..

Enough from me, I'm going to lose some skin at the Cliff...

[Plattsy]

No one is justifying it. However we are trying to look a little further into the problems than just repeating "sheer criminality" upteen times.

Slackers, I don't anyone is trying to justify it, or doesn't think it's disgusting. But just condemning it, or trying "stamp it out" by police force isn't going to fix the underlying issues that lead to this kind of event.

The "disaffected" were in the same state the day before as they will be after things have died down, all they've done is see an opportunity and taken it.  Thats not to say the points being made about being disenchanted about future prospects/seeing no future aren't true, but its not why they've jumped on this opportunity, although may in part explain why they see it as a (very short-term) opportunity to get something for nothing.

Anyway, work to do today.

If they get something for nothing they'll not be in the same state. They'll have cash from the TV they sold.

Anyway just heard it was supposed to kick off (via BBM) in Derby last night with the WEstfield shopping centre being targetted however it is said the police managed to head that one off before it started.

[slackline]

If they get something for nothing they'll not be in the same state. They'll have cash from the TV they sold.

Which will last a whole week!  How myopic.

Tbh, I thought this kind of thing may have happened in a year or two's time when it all started to bite more..

IMHO that's because this has nothing to do with Tory driven public and local authority spending cuts.  This is a much deeper malaise that's been developing for years.

Inequalities

[Plattsy]

If they get something for nothing they'll not be in the same state. They'll have cash from the TV they sold.

Which will last a whole week!  How myopic.

Which is the problem. They don't see a future beyond next week.....like what Oldmanmatt was on about..

[chris05]

Some problems in Nottingham last night:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-14455584

[Jaspersharpe]

Are you really sure the looters have no personal responsibility and it's all someone else's fault?

How does that  square with the majority of their peers in those communities who aren't looting, because there's a lot more than merely a few hundred teenagers in London, Liverpool etc

7.8m people live in London. A few hundred fucking wankers are not representative of young people or the population as a whole.

Opportunism? Blatant robbery? Criminal intent rather than social disorder? Probably yes to all three, but at the root of all this is (IMHO) no future for many of those involved...

No EMA, no chance of a free higher education and a way out, no jobs, no youth clubs and/or youth schemes... What else is there to do other than hang about get drunk/smashed, cause a bit of trouble..? Then the Feds pants are down as they're severely over stretched and it's freebie time on the high street.. A chance to get something back 'tax back' as one looter put it...

Or just the attitude that you see in loads of people nowadays that they are in some way owed not just a living but lots of new shiny things too. Too many fuckers who don't realise that most people who DO have decent jobs and therefore nicer lifestyles have studied and worked fucking hard to get them, often being poor for years / getting into loads of debt in the process. The X Factor / Big Brother / Tabloid attitude that everything is attainable immediately and with little talent or (seemingly) effort has a big part to play.

The shit areas haven't suddenly got much shitter in the last year so I don't buy the fact that this is all down to the Tories (much as I'd like to blame them). There's obviously a massive feeling of resentment against the police and the establishment but what's new? Way I see it, the original protest was hijacked by a bunch of thieving, violent cunts and when people saw how hopelessly the coppers dealt with it it encouraged other groups of thieving violent cunts and stupid children to have a go too.

Honestly, how many of those pricks were rioting because they have no chance of a free university education? They are the minority who probably hardly ever go/went to school anyway and wont get/have any GCSEs let alone needing the EMA to stay on at college. They don't want a job as that would involve hard work and not getting paid much, maybe for years until you work your way up. That's for mugs.

There are plenty of people who DO do well having grown up in a crap area but they're not the types who would smash up a local business / burn someone's house down for lolz. It might sound Partridge but these people are scum.

As you say, the worst of the Tory policies haven't even really bitten yet so in an ironic way they're off the hook for causing this. The pathetic lack of leadership from Boris and Dave is another story though. People are already calling it Cameron's Katrina moment.

[slackline]

Which is the problem. They don't see a future beyond next week.....like what Oldmanmatt was on about..

Then they're even more stupid than I gave them credit for.

Did they even bother trying to engage with their local communities and try and make a difference?  What about the political process, did they try and understand the issues, particularly those that matter to them, before going to the polling booth?  Doubt many bothered to vote though.

Like it or not these people live in a structured society and if they're not willing to engage with it and work together then of course nothing will change for them. 

What Jasper & Jonathan said too.

[mrjonathanr]

Broadly speaking I don't think it's difficult to understand.

There are alienated young people out there who have little sense of obligation to the community as it seems to have little sense of obligation to them. If you don't feel valued, it's hard to value others.

The general squeeze on standards of living means the least protected are getting squeezed the hardest. The dearth of opportunity for school leavers parallels the early 80s now, and for some in a generation brought up with a mantra of 'education, education' and govt. policy of 50% in higher ed. to have it made almost inaccesssible must seem like mockery.

Since it's material privilege which makes education more accessible, the underlying message is pretty clear: property not people. Promote that value system and then complain about materialism? You can't effectively say 'material things are good - but you can't access them, now be compliant' without generating anger.

Tensions between police and gangs are also very high with sustained pressure on knife/gun crime being applied through stop-and-search. Remember the 'sus' laws and how communities felty about that? The gangsters want to hit back - as do some youngsters who feel oppressed by police behaviour.

A cavalier attitude amongst policy-makers to the sense of social exclusion and disenfranchisement embedded in many communities is idiotic - and a big problem. Some will react very badly indeed, particularly when incited and believing they can escape consequences - and that's part of group psychology anyway, also fed by social media.

What is made more possible is also made more likely: social media will make the organisation of 'disorder' more prevalent in years to come I suspect.

They will also make constructive community responses more effective and probably offer one of the most powerful tools to counter this behaviour.

To understand isn't to excuse. People are wholly responsible for their -criminal- actions. To suggest anything else is an insult to the majority of youngsters who aren't out there pillaging the community. The widespread nature of this does however demand a hard think about how society is managing current difficulties, because the pain is being shared pretty unequally and while that persists destructive behaviour is much more likely.

Or to put it another way, society has never been short of dickheads. Don't give them the excuse.

[Jaspersharpe]

They will also make constructive community responses more effective and probably offer one of the most powerful tools to counter this behaviour.

http://twitter.com/Riotcleanup 

Great post btw. You're much cleverer than me.

[slackline]

I'm yet to be convinced by it* but am reading the book on which the above link to Inequalities called The Spirit Level : Why Equality is Better for Everyone was set up for by the authors and it makes for interesting reading (summaries of the main points in each area are on the website).  There are of course various criticisms but its just the sort of area that relates to these events and the sorts of explanations that people are writing above to understand the problem.

Well worth a read of both sides.

* Graphs with out legends, make my blood boil.

[Plattsy]

Nail on the head there MrJonathon

and just for slackers. 

[Jaspersharpe]

I don't think there's any doubt that a society where the majority of the wealth is owned by a tiny minority of the population can't be a good thing. I'd be interested to hear what proposals the authors might have for changing things though.

[slackline]

I don't think there's any doubt that a society where the majority of the wealth is owned by a tiny minority of the population can't be a good thing. I'd be interested to hear what proposals the authors might have for changing things though.

Not got to that chapter yet (slow reader who generally juggles several books and spend too much time pissing around on t'internet).

One recurring point they make is not only are those who have less wealth worse off, but those who are wealthy have lower life expectancy in countries where there is greater inequality, i.e. its to the benefit of those at both ends of the extremes to minimise the gap between them.  Its strange that those who are wealthy in a country with high inequality (e.g. the US of A) have lower life expectancies than their counter-parts where there is less inequality (e.g. Japan).

I'm not too keen on the Gini co-efficient that they use to quantify inequaility though.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Jasper, but I suspect I've just got a bit more thinking time on my hands this morning!
Anyway, while Rome burns, I'm going to go bouldering on grit now.

[SA Chris]

Nail on the head there MrJonathon

and just for slackers. 

Is that the new Tesco logo?

[slackline]

and just for slackers. 

F- for you Plattsy, No legend, no title, pointless additional graphics.  Your homework is to read Tufte's "Visual Display of Quantitative Information"

[psychomansam]

Truth - or not too far off:
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107994

The same theme but with some added right-wing bull and perhaps xenophobia:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html