[michal]

I'm interested in doing some more planned/structured training for bouldering.  My goal for 2011 is to climb some 7c+ boulders in Bishop and Yosemite.  The problems vary from gently overhanging to maybe 40 degrees overhanging and primarily feature edges/crimps, though there are a few openhanded slopers. 

The year started with a pulley injury that has now healed and left all of my potential sending for the fall season (too hot in the late spring/summer) - so I've got plenty of time to get better.

I've been climbing for 14 years, have good technique/footwork on granite and have done many 7b+ problems and a few at the 7c grade outdoors.  At this point I consider my weaknesses to be: flexibility, back/shoulder girdle strength, core strength, one-arm strength and power endurance.  I can campus 1-4-7 fairly easily yet cannot hang for even a few seconds one-armed on a large edge.  I tend to perform much better on gently overhanging climbs than on steep walls.  I'm 181cm tall and weigh 75kg...pretty lean so there is not much possibility of gaining a grade by losing weight.

My "training", such as it is, involves climbing 3-4 days a week, with one of those days followed by a weight lifting session for chest/triceps to balance my shoulders and arms out.  I have access to several gyms with good bouldering walls, a campus board and have a Beastmaker at home.  I currently do some hangboard work, but it's fairly unstructured and sporadic.

I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to have a more structured training plan and am at a bit of a loss as to how to construct one since the commonly seen plans seem to cater to training for sport climbing.  Any thoughts/suggestions are much appreciated....

[Paul B]

Today I have been mostly reading:

Designing Periodised Training Plans – Tom Randall
The Science behind Training – Dave Binney

(and failing to understand...)

[account_inactive]

75kg is 10Kg too heavy for hard climbing. Lose some bulk and you won't find steeper walls as challenging.

Stop looking at classic periodisation Paul, your not doing comps are you?  Look at dual factor training theory for a more relevant option

[Duma]

75kg is 10Kg too heavy for hard climbing. Lose some bulk and you won't find steeper walls as challenging.

Really? At 181cm - so  over 5'11" - that seems a pretty reasonable weight to me. Certainly not 10kg overweight. I'm 5'9" and around 70kg and haven't felt weight has been the limiting factor in my climbing.
I'd do flexibility work, ensuring you go for strength throughout the range of movement, and one arm stuff (1-4-7 and not able  to hang a big rung sounds pretty imbalanced to me). Try a pulley to take some weight off initially maybe?
Sounds like you have access to all the right tools, good luck!

(Disclaimer: I'm weak, barely climb 7C+, and am very ill-disciplined when it comes to training. Also Dylan knows much much more about this than me)
65kg is still too skinny for 5'11" though

[account_inactive]

You're right 75Kg is not heavy at all for the normal population, though on average you would have to say that it's too heavy to climb 8a+ or more.  I'm not saying that it's impossible just less likely and an area that you shouldn't overlook without question, although whether this is healthy or not is another question.......

[michal]

I don't think there's a conceivable way I could remain healthy and lose 10kg....two or three perhaps, and that probably only for a short period of time.  Point taken, though.

Dual factor training theory seems to be a good way at viewing fatigue/fitness.  The question remains whether there is a good way to organize training various lengths of problems to target power, strength and low-end PE, all the while mixing in fingerboard and campus workouts....

[pyrosis]

75kg is 10Kg too heavy for hard climbing.

So I have to lose 25kg to climb hard? Guess I had better give up the cheesecake.

[Paul B]

Stop looking at classic periodisation Paul, your not doing comps are you?  Look at dual factor training theory for a more relevant option

Linky?

[account_inactive]

75kg is 10Kg too heavy for hard climbing.

So I have to lose 25kg to climb hard? Guess I had better give up the cheesecake.

It depends what you call hard.  Things are always easier on your fingers if you're not lugging up bulk.

PaulB: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

[galpinos]

75kg is 10Kg too heavy for hard climbing. Lose some bulk and you won't find steeper walls as challenging.

 

[account_inactive]

Sorry I wasn't trying to piss on anyone's chips.  You can climb reasonable grades at higher weights and there are many examples of people who do this.  All I was doing was picking up on michal's assumption that he would not gain a grade by losing weight.  If he's already lean then it would be harder to drop weight than if he was crisp shaped like myself  and time might be better spent elsewhere for short term goals

[Paul B]

your link only seems different to the 'Wave' theory put forward in Toms presentation?

[account_inactive]

Yes

[ghisino]

I don't think there's a conceivable way I could remain healthy and lose 10kg....two or three perhaps, and that probably only for a short period of time.

2 or 3 kgs over a (not too) short period of time can have more impact than you think.

personally speaking, whenever i've lost 3kgs in a reasonable way i've experienced a half grade bump.
This maybe explains why i've had the best climbing performance streaks of my life between late spring and late autumn : in summer i naturally have less appetite for calorie-dense stuff and more appetite for veggies and such so i naturally lose some weight, while i inevitably bulk up during winter.
It could also explain why some years ago, during a long trip to céuse where i'd climb 3 days in a row and rest one, i was still improving my climbing performances day by day at the end of the third week, even if i started to be generally fatigued, my pip joints were swollen, and i felt somehow starved : maybe the weight lost during each walk to the crag played a role?

ps
i am 170 cm tall and somewhere between 66 and 68 in my "fat" state and 64-65 in my "lean" one

[chris05]

 

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

[John Gillott]

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

But then there's Malcolm Smith who improved when he put on a stone and a half - going back up to his comfortable weight of between 11 and 11 1/2 stone after the excessive dieting when he was young. He says in interviews that his improved performance wasn't about better technique as such - his strength to weight ratio as well as his performance went up despite the extra weight. He just felt a lot more comfortable and able to make strength gains at his normal weight.

[account_inactive]

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

But then there's Malcolm Smith who improved when he put on a stone and a half - going back up to his comfortable weight of between 11 and 11 1/2 stone after the excessive dieting when he was young. He says in interviews that his improved performance wasn't about better technique as such - his strength to weight ratio as well as his performance went up despite the extra weight. He just felt a lot more comfortable and able to make strength gains at his normal weight.

I think this is the exception rather than the rule

[Paul B]

wasn't this because Malc lost the weight in a poor way, leaving him fatigued enough to faint at the crag?

Leaning up and starving yourself are completely different things.

[John Gillott]

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

But then there's Malcolm Smith who improved when he put on a stone and a half - going back up to his comfortable weight of between 11 and 11 1/2 stone after the excessive dieting when he was young. He says in interviews that his improved performance wasn't about better technique as such - his strength to weight ratio as well as his performance went up despite the extra weight. He just felt a lot more comfortable and able to make strength gains at his normal weight.

I think this is the exception rather than the rule

I'm not sure how many exceptions there are, but man of the moment Sharma is amongst them (he's the same weight as chunky old me and not much taller).

[douglas]

Today I have been mostly reading:

Designing Periodised Training Plans – Tom Randall
The Science behind Training – Dave Binney

(and failing to understand...)

Where did you find those?

[Paul B]

Shark (simon) linked them (with permission) from the other forum GBindoorclimbing.com

[account_inactive]

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

But then there's Malcolm Smith who improved when he put on a stone and a half - going back up to his comfortable weight of between 11 and 11 1/2 stone after the excessive dieting when he was young. He says in interviews that his improved performance wasn't about better technique as such - his strength to weight ratio as well as his performance went up despite the extra weight. He just felt a lot more comfortable and able to make strength gains at his normal weight.

I think this is the exception rather than the rule

I'm not sure how many exceptions there are, but man of the moment Sharma is amongst them (he's the same weight as chunky old me and not much taller).

How heavy is the other man of the moment Ondra?

[John Gillott]

I was thinking about this whilst doing some assisted one arm max hangs the other day, a kilo or two in assistance makes a big difference to the holds that I can hang, I assume that losing just a couple of kg would have a comparable effect as long as the loss wasn't muscle mass etc.

But then there's Malcolm Smith who improved when he put on a stone and a half - going back up to his comfortable weight of between 11 and 11 1/2 stone after the excessive dieting when he was young. He says in interviews that his improved performance wasn't about better technique as such - his strength to weight ratio as well as his performance went up despite the extra weight. He just felt a lot more comfortable and able to make strength gains at his normal weight.

I think this is the exception rather than the rule

I'm not sure how many exceptions there are, but man of the moment Sharma is amongst them (he's the same weight as chunky old me and not much taller).

How heavy is the other man of the moment Ondra?

Indeed. I get the impression that in both cases they've gone with what came naturally - i.e. Ondra was always the lanky skinny kid whereas Sharma wasn't. That's the message I got from the Smith interviews as well - he just didn't feel very comfortable when he was light and found it easier and more natural to train hard at the weight his body was comfortable with. Obviously, it's good to get the lard off, and Sharma's not carrying any of that (unlike me).

[pyrosis]

While I certainly agree it would be easier to send harder if lighter, I also know in my heart that there is no way I could ever be 60kg. I'm 90kg now at 6'2", probably 15% body fat, and I have been bouldering harder than ever. Granted, harder than ever for me is not 'hard' for others. I regularly see people warm up on my projects (damn that Matt Birch...)   At any rate, should I be shooting for 80kg then? It might be the lowest weight at which I could be reasonably healthy with my frame and musculature.

[Eddies]

Lets not turn this into a rant about how heavy we all are and the best way to lose it/beef up/convince ourselves its all good (delete as applicable)

I think the link Dylan posted was excellent and have taken something from it and will adjust my training according once im back to climbing in my urban cave again.

If I was after getting better for a bouldering trip I would sit down and work out which areas of my fitness I thought needed work, and which areas were most important and base my training accordingly.
For you that might mean, fingerboarding 2 times a week, with 2days a week bouldering in a gym with one of those sessions ending in a weights routine.
If you think you need to loose a few pounds by cutting back on the junk then go for it but it has to be enjoyed not endured!