[rodma]

I've never quite managed to get it right to be honest. I think that I've always climbed at my best by thoroughly beasting myself for several days on and then taking a couple of rest days before each rock-day or comp. Then straight back to the beasting again.

Rodders, This isn't a dig or a put down, but, well, how do I put this... You've admitted in the past that your comp/trip performance is often a big let down and you're nearly semi-permanently injured.

http://roddybouldering.blogspot.com/2009/10/getting-it-right.html

Maybe some periodisation would help break this chain?

Just a thought 

 

I never got it right after I started periodisation and all of the associated cross training that we were asked to do when on the team. I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I think that it ought to work for a competition, where there is a set date and the event is not weather dependant. I think that the cross training that I did whilst on the team seriously affected my climbing (in a negative way). By swapping from "my way" to "their way" I managed to go from having done my first font 8as in font, got 21st place in a world cup, to being unable to get up any font 7a in font and getting a 20th place in the bbcs

My best results both in trips and in comps have been by the method that i described. I've just recently started going back to the weights, but not as part of some pyramid or periodisation and am currently seeing a return to form that I haven't seen since 2007, despite having a knackered hand.

[Fultonius]

Ah, ok, interesting.   Once again... making assumptions comes back to haunt me!

A bit    but what weights do you do? Deadlifts/Squats etc?

[shark]

I never got it right after I started periodisation and all of the associated cross training that we were asked to do when on the team. I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I think that it ought to work for a competition, where there is a set date and the event is not weather dependant. I think that the cross training that I did whilst on the team seriously affected my climbing (in a negative way). By swapping from "my way" to "their way" I managed to go from having done my first font 8as in font, got 21st place in a world cup, to being unable to get up any font 7a in font and getting a 20th place in the bbcs

My best results both in trips and in comps have been by the method that i described. I've just recently started going back to the weights, but not as part of some pyramid or periodisation and am currently seeing a return to form that I haven't seen since 2007, despite having a knackered hand.

Sorry to hear that it worked out for you this way. It would be good what we can pick up from your experience though.

Can you expand a bit on the cross-training you did and also what the outcome was for the rest of the team ? Also how long was the periodised programme and was it structured along classic linear lines? Was it puty together by Dave Binney ?

[rodma]

In reply to Fultonious and Shark

The cross training that we were given was by a strength conditioning coach. I'm pretty sure I signed a non-disclosure agreement, but lets just say it was pyramid with standard phases (adaptation etc.) and other people have posted on here about similar. As for the specific exercices, let's just say that they were "Olympic" style lifting with the emphasis on very specific form and heavy weights (I ended up doing reps on a few exercises with more than double my bodyweight)

AFAIK, the rest of the team sacked it off (the guys anyway). I'm not sure about the gals.

I now do good-mornings, clean-and-jerk and squats, which are the same sets of exercises I used to do. I can write something more comprehensive when I get achance if either of you (or anyone else) is interested.

On the team, it was a big mix of exercises all designed to compliment one another and I did get a lot better at lifting weights (sumo squat). The big problem for me is, that when I climb, I don't move (or use) my legs in that fashion or even range of movement, I tend to paste-and-go.

I did get a pb on the campus board during this period as well (jump-catch 5th rung, pull to but my bouldering was both shit whilst down the wall, shit at the crag and shit in competition.

[Falling Down]

Rodders - I'd be interested to hear more about your weights regime and how it differs from the cross-training you were doing as part of the team that you thought detrimental to performance.

I'm in the process of starting to do incorporate barbell work for overall conditioning and injury proofing and would like to hear what's worked for others.

[stonemonkey]

As part  of my uni course we do sports conditioning specifically relating to climbing and other outdoor sports if you so choose. Many people train the wrong way thinking it will benefit their climbing, however you need to remember the rule of specificity in relation to your actual goals. If you want to become more powerful in your bouldering, there is less benefit training your CV system as you will be recruiting the wrong muscle fibres i.e. fast twitch to slow twitch. So try to keep things as specific as possible. I had really good results from keeping a training/climbing diary as it helps paint a far better picture

[BB]

Rodders - I'd be interested to hear more about your weights regime and how it differs from the cross-training you were doing as part of the team that you thought detrimental to performance.

I'm in the process of starting to do incorporate barbell work for overall conditioning and injury proofing and would like to hear what's worked for others.

 

I'm keen to learn as much as I can about complimentary weights regimes and cross training. It'd be great to hear first hand opinions about what worked and what didn't in relation to specific climbing goals.

[Falling Down]

Maybe a separate thread is needed?  I'll start one.

[Falling Down]

As if by magic (thanks mods..)

My non-climbing training is not to make me a better climber (that only comes from climbing and climbing specific training IMHO) but to increase my overall physical 'capital' to improve recovery, expand my capacity for climbing specific training and performance e.g. more redpoint goes close to limit, more goes at boulder problems, longer days tradding. I started earlier this year on the back of a run of injuries gained last year that were to do with shoulder problems & elbow tendonitis and realised that whilst I was in OK shape, I was pretty out of balance and set about trying to address some of the problems.

- Male 40 yrs old, 80kg.
- Climbing 20 yrs trad, sport and bouldering, OK technique.

Strength/Power Goals
2 x BW Deadlft (Done 175kg)
1.5 x BW Front Squat
1xBW OH Squat
1xBW Bench Press (Close.. 70kg)
.5 BW Turkish Getup (Done 40kg)
25 x Pullup
0.5 BW Weighted Pullup (Done 60kg)

Cardio Power Endurance
Row 2000m <7:00 (7:20)
Row 5000m <19:30 (21:00)

I'll expand a lttle more tomorrow as I'm heading to the wall now.

[Paul B]

I've always avoided anything squat shaped for the obvious reason that any additional muscle mass needs to be dragged up with me (or in Gymjones speak: I need to carry the engine  ).

I've done a few phases of weights which have varied from isolation exercises to complexes but never really found any apparent crossover despite obviously getting better PB's at exercises. They've always addressed the imbalances I've had which I have to be honest, was usually the reason I'd started (thus allowing me to start re-creating the imabalance as I'm fairly convinced a balance isn't optimum for absolute performance but I could be way off here).

The most transferable exercises I've found have all been on the rings. The benefits in my core and shoulders were evident.

I'd be interested to know if anybody has dealt with explosive exercises such as clean and jerk / Bench with the weights (KB's) attached to the bar via therabands?

[Falling Down]

>I'm fairly convinced a balance isn't optimum for absolute performance but I could be way off here)

No I think you're right Paul.  I was flicking through a Climber mag at the wall and stumbled across a Stevie Haston article where he was comparing the pro's and con's of three physically very different Stevie's throughout his career. 

As for squats, you're also right, problem with me is that I've always had big legs so I figure might as well make these pit props as strong as possible plus I've noticed big improvement in hip flexibility through doing squats.

[Paul B]

I see what you did there 

[Fultonius]

You don't actually need to bulk up much to be able to do bodyweight overhead squats:

[Paul B]

You don't actually need to bulk up much to be able to do bodyweight overhead squats:

the point is IMO (which may be unfounded), the benefit of doing so is literally outweighed by ANY related increase in body mass, I've best I've ever climbed was when I was my most injury prone, and lightest. The recent popularity of dieting proves this, climbing is ridiculously dependant on your weight, its the quickest, easiest way to get gains.

[Fultonius]

Oh, I don't doubt the best way to be the strongest you can be is to do absolutely nothing that doesn't directly improve your climbing (squats won't do an awful lot for climbing, but, as you say, may be detrimental due to bulk).

On the other hand, if being a bit more injury proof is more important to you than 1/2 a Font grade, the squats are probably very useful! (I have to do them just now as rehab for my knee - I've definitely put a few kg of leg mass on, but that's life!)

Deadlifts I would guess have a better cross-over to climbing, as they pound the hamstrings, glutes and lower back, all of which will help on steep bouldering.

It seems like the current thinking is, if you keep the protein/calorie intake low, reps and sets low, and weights high you'll gain a lot of power and strength without gaining much bulk. Boxers/weightlifters in restricted weight categories have been doing it for years.

[Lund]

It seems like the current thinking is, if you keep the protein/calorie intake low, reps and sets low, and weights high you'll gain a lot of power and strength without gaining much bulk. Boxers/weightlifters in restricted weight categories have been doing it for years.

This is the whole muscle-recruitment, hypertrophy, fibre-balance thing.  Here ya go, some SCIENCE: http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

I have question, about legs.  So... I climb about max V9; weigh 62kg.  I have the legs of a 12 year old only with more hair.  I don't diet, as I can't be arsed.  And I don't think it'd make any difference.  I don't really do any power leg exercise; I run a bit to keep the CV engine non-fecked, but that's all.  If I do ANY leg exercise, I gain weight, although not much.

I'm CRAP at dynos.

Would I get better if I had bigger legs?  Or rather, do I need bigger legs (plus some dyno technique...) to get better at dynos?  Obviously, other shit would get worse, but there's a balance, right - if I can climb V10 with a bit more weight and being able to jump, then that's all good...

[Fultonius]

Willackers has got the most pathetic legs I've ever seen  and crushes all manners of Dynos with ease. 

If you're 62kg, you can't be all that tall - (or you'd be some kind of freakish pole-like thing) - that's obviously going to limit your dynoing ability a bit?  Do you really want to be better at dynos?

[Lund]

Willackers has got the most pathetic legs I've ever seen  and crushes all manners of Dynos with ease. 

If you're 62kg, you can't be all that tall - (or you'd be some kind of freakish pole-like thing) - that's obviously going to limit your dynoing ability a bit?  Do you really want to be better at dynos?

5'9 3/4''.  So not short at all thank you very much.    No, not that fussy... just curious.

[Falling Down]

At the moment my body mass is decreasing even as I'm increasing the weights but that's because I'm carrying too much fat so it's a win-win at the moment. 

[Serpico]

You don't actually need to bulk up much to be able to do bodyweight overhead squats:

the point is IMO (which may be unfounded), the benefit of doing so is literally outweighed by ANY related increase in body mass, I've best I've ever climbed was when I was my most injury prone, and lightest. The recent popularity of dieting proves this, climbing is ridiculously dependant on your weight, its the quickest, easiest way to get gains.

There's a number of points here.
Regarding strength to weight, specifically fingers, I think you adapt to whatever weight you are (within reason). That's why people who have plateaued climb better when they lose some weight, my experience is that they fail to keep that relative strength increase as their fingers adapt to climbing at the new weight.
For me if I increase muscle mass I tend to offset a lot of the weight gain by having lower body fat levels - the two always seem to go hand in hand for me, from what I've read this seems to be others experience as well. Also when I increase muscle mass it's only in the region of 1Kg, I'm never going to be big even if I train and eat for hypertrophy.
Age is an issue as well, as I plod on in to decrepitude sarcopenia is more of a concern - so I train to add muscle just to offset what I'm losing. I've always been weak of body, strong of finger, so I had a lot to gain from increasing overall body strength, there's a lot of climbers who are naturally very strong, typically they're often the type of people who bulk up easily, weight training for them is unnecessary and usually detrimental to climbing performance.
As for what does and doesn't transfer, I've experienced a noticeable improvement in moves that involve standing up from an undercut (the crux of Vogue, etc) from doing deadlifts and squats. Exercises that target my (weak) shoulders like upright rows had the knock on effect of improving my deadhanging ability.

[Paul B]

There's a number of points here.
Regarding strength to weight, specifically fingers, I think you adapt to whatever weight you are (within reason). That's why people who have plateaued climb better when they lose some weight, my experience is that they fail to keep that relative strength increase as their fingers adapt to climbing at the new weight.

I'm struggling to accept this looking at the new breed of ever younger climbers who have literally nothing in the way of muscles yet it doesn't seem to stop them. My experience has been those that have dieted have done so badly and struggle to maintain their new found weight. I've recently started using a weight belt and the difference a measly 2kg makes (to me) is marked.

For me if I increase muscle mass I tend to offset a lot of the weight gain by having lower body fat levels - the two always seem to go hand in hand for me, from what I've read this seems to be others experience as well. Also when I increase muscle mass it's only in the region of 1Kg, I'm never going to be big even if I train and eat for hypertrophy.

and neither am I...

I too have seen (and purposefully sought) to reduce my bodyfat whilst lifting which offset the mass gains but only temporarily. The lower bodyfat % doesn't seem maintainable to me at least (without being entirely climbing focussed which I'm not these days). Do you manage to maintain this lower bodyfat %?

[Serpico]

I'm struggling to accept this looking at the new breed of ever younger climbers who have literally nothing in the way of muscles yet it doesn't seem to stop them.

I think there's an age thing here - I was stronger for a lot less effort and muscle when I was younger.

I've recently started using a weight belt and the difference a measly 2kg makes (to me) is marked.

But you're using the weight belt because you expect to adapt to the extra weight, you do the same with reasonable muscle mass gains. I don't think anyone is coming up against their genetic limit for finger strength, they're just failing to have a consistently high enough stimulus.

I too have seen (and purposefully sought) to reduce my bodyfat whilst lifting which offset the mass gains but only temporarily. The lower bodyfat % doesn't seem maintainable to me at least (without being entirely climbing focussed which I'm not these days). Do you manage to maintain this lower bodyfat %?

My point was that I didn't purposely try to reduce my BF%, it just happens naturally when I weight train. For me having more muscle seems to keep the BF% down.

[Stubbs]

I'm struggling to accept this looking at the new breed of ever younger climbers who have literally nothing in the way of muscles yet it doesn't seem to stop them.

Hmmmm for every Paul Robinson there's a Daniel Woods or a Nalle Hukkataival.  I think one of the most interesting things about climbing is that there's not a specific body type or muscle %age that's best like there is in most other sports.

[robertostallioni]

I think one of the most interesting things about climbing is that there's not a specific body type or muscle %age that's best like there is in most other sports.

I think we both know thats not true, Tim.   

[account_inactive]

I'm struggling to accept this looking at the new breed of ever younger climbers who have literally nothing in the way of muscles yet it doesn't seem to stop them.

Hmmmm for every Paul Robinson there's a Daniel Woods or a Nalle Hukkataival.  I think one of the most interesting things about climbing is that there's not a specific body type or muscle %age that's best like there is in most other sports.

Bad example as Woods and Nalle are hardly heavy for their frames. 
I fail to see how someone who has climbed for 10 years at 12 stone will adapt to suit a 10 stone frame over a short period of time I can think of several example of this amongst friends whose grades have increased exponentially when they started to drop weight.