[RAK Punter]

Can anybody that understands how the world economy got in this mess confirm that http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2010/04/shocking_fraud_from_financial.php is a pretty accurate description of what the banking industry was doing?

[RAK Punter]

... only seems to have happened a handful of times in the late stages of the 2008 meltdown, in transactions between the Squid and a few other firms.

An article generous in its praise for Goldman Sachs 

...
Basically we are all guilty (except me obviously).

Of course.    a mess that was predicted on the other channel and met with ridicule at the time.


So the mess we are in was not a premeditated conspiracy with structured malice aforethought but a pyramid scheme of global proportions.

[Sloper]

No the mess is the same sort of mess that we (as a whole) have experienced for about 800 years of commerce and so on. The difference is now the mechanisms of trade and commerce.

The south sea bubble, dutch tulip boom and so on all exhibit the same core characteristics.

Sorry folks but this latest episode is just good evidence that human nature hasn't changed much over the years. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

If you want to sell some crap fakes, pretend they're stolen goods, if you want to sell something that doesn't exist prey on greed and ignorance, if you want to confuse a fool make the structure complicated.

I would suggest the best analogy with banking is medicine, medicines will overall make the patient better but you do get the odd side effect and patient death.  If historically you want to find evidence of civilisation you'll find evidence of merchant banking and if you want untold misery and depravity you'll find bankers being stimatised, their assets seized or worse murdered.

[superfurrymonkey]

[john horscroft]

I liked Captain Ska so much, I bought the record.... 

[Sloper]

Good tune and a good video.

All I can say is I do hope the pace of cuts picks up, it's what we need.

Inflation is on the uptick and is most unlikely to come down in the near future, we need to increase interest rates deflate the property market and stimulate growth.

Do I want a permanently 'smaller state'? Absolutely.
Do I want fewer civil servants? Too bloddy right I do.
Do I think that this will be painful? Of course it will.  We were on the equivilant of an 8 year bender, the bailout of the banks was just the last large scotch at the end of the evening and we know what's coming.

[superfurrymonkey]

Why Government is More Afraid of Debt than Depression
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6002

[Sloper]

Seems like a well placed fear.

Imagine you lose your job and you've got sufficient liquid assets to cover your expenses for 5 years, how worried are you.

Now imagine keeping your job but your income isn't sufficient to meet your most basic expenses and service your debt.

Now which option would you choose?

As far as I can recall there's still a reasonable body of opinion that the US response to the depression made things worse in the medium and long term rather than better.

[philo]

ive been watching alot of economists and my favourites are ron paul and peter schiff who predicted the economic crysis before it happened.  I cant see how we can get out of this, it really is a recession turning into a depression.  When the dollar collapses, I fear the same thing will happen with our GBP.  I would love to see an audit of the federal reserve and the bank of england to see who exactly they bailed out.  Personally I think they should have let the bad businesses and banks crash without absorbing their financial woe and putting it on the tax payer.  There was an interesting article about how the richest of the riches in the banks are better off now than before the government bailouts - some system this is - I cant see an end to it

[Sloper]

First of all I don't see an iminent collapse of the US$, certainly not when China is holding a really big number of US$'s in both cash and bonds.

As for allowing the consequences of 'moral hazard', yes I too would have preferred that we let the likes of NR, HBOS and RBS just go to the wall, cover the individual depositors to £50 and sell the debt book and assets as per a normal administration.

[Jaspersharpe]

Bloody hell I'm in complete agreement with Sloper again, what's going on?!

[Sloper]

I don't know, you can meet me for a pint in the Sheaf later and I'll pass on your application to be a fully paid up tory.

[Jaspersharpe]

That's hardly Tory policy you dick.

Mrs is out tonight (I'm out tomorrow @ The Broadfield) or I'd do the pint bit.

[GraemeA]

That's hardly Tory policy you dick.

Mrs is out tonight (I'm out tomorrow @ The Broadfield) or I'd do the pint bit.

You not coming to The Works party then Jas?

[Jaspersharpe]

No mate, just a few beers. Too busy at the moment to be out too late and write off Sunday (where's the old man smiley?).

[philo]

4am topic from the dead.
When this thread started things were bad but as I thought, they have only worsened. 

Debt limit raised in the US, should not have been allowed but it has - the problem is not the debt ceiling but the debt itself.  13 trillion and counting - Obama has the same people running things as those who got us into this mess.  They simply do not understand it - we are all fucked.

Europe, the euro zone should never have allowed countries like Greece and Ireland into the euro zone in the first place.
They have a president that was not elected, seem to make up a large amount of our rules (one report stated 70% ill try find the source) and promise refforendums (Labour promised a refforendum as did the Tories,) then cancel them when they get in.  Or simply ignore refforendums like in Ireland when they voted no. 

GDP, I love the reports of the GDP of our country of 0.2% or in fact any of the western world.  The calculations are ridiculous.
Estimated GDP and phony economy that counts the countries money IN as money coming in from the stimulus.  How can debt be used as capitol in this way. 
We cannot spend our way out of a depression - we are in a depression not a double dip recession.  This has lasted 3 years and is going to last a lot longer.  The GDP should not count in money loaned it should be based on savings and growth from exporting goods as an example. 
You wouldn't be allowed to go into a bank and say, I've got 10k of debt, give me another 5k and ill be fine.  Debt fueled growth is not growth at all.

Central banks run the world, if you are in charge of the money you are in charge of the country.  Do some research, try find out who owns the federal reserve (which is a private bank) or the IMF, who controls the IMF?  Bank of England.... All centralized banks are in it together - who sits in on their meetings when they decide who to bail out?

Rumors of a large British bank in trouble again - too big to fail?  I hope not.  One day the people will wake up and realise how hard we are getting fucked up the arse as the price of living goes up, standard of living goes down and the fact that we cant change it.

I constantly bang the same drum and end up repeating myself on some issues but I really can't see us getting out of this.  We simply dont care.  Do your own research, come to your own conclusions - check history. 

By speaking your mind and agreeing with certain people on certain topics, (not all,) can allow you to be ridiculed by people who have done no research into it.  I agree with Nigel Farage, (the UKIP MEP - has been on HIGNFY) on the EU. 
I agree with Ron Paul and Peter Schiff in the US on topics such as foreign policy and Austrian economics, based on their logic and their past record on predicting things such as the housing bubble. 

We are on the brink of losing and I think the money changers have won

[superfurrymonkey]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/195
We, the undersigned petition the Government to introduce a Financial Transaction or 'Robin Hood' tax. This tiny tax (0.05%) on the financial sector has the power to raise hundreds of billions every year globally. It could give a vital boost to the NHS, our schools, and the fight against child poverty in the UK – as well as tackling poverty and climate change around the world.

[Fultonius]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/195
We, the undersigned petition the Government to introduce a Financial Transaction or 'Robin Hood' tax. This tiny tax (0.05%) on the financial sector has the power to raise hundreds of billions every year globally. It could give a vital boost to the NHS, our schools, and the fight against child poverty in the UK – as well as tackling poverty and climate change around the world.

Problem is, it won't be a robin hood tax as it will just be passed on to the consumer and the rich will still cream their massive profits. In the end of the day, it'll just be another tax on all of us and will probably affect the middle and middle-low income the most (as the true poorest don't borrow or save as large sums from the banks).

In my opionion the only way of truely re-distributing the wealth is higher rate of income tax for the super-rich. I don't buy all this "brain-drain" bullshit - that's just propoganda promoted by the rich to protect their interests!

While we're at it I think any civil servant getting paid more than £150k should get a 10% pay cut. Why should the lower paid civil servants take the hit!

[Jaspersharpe]

Yes a higher rate of income tax but also of CGT on short term gains etc etc.

Fact is if every country does this then the "brain drain" theory is up shit creek too. Obama is trying but unfortunately even the tiniest tax rises are opposed by the utter lunacy of the Tea Party. That's the major problem: