[account_inactive]

Complimentary nuts?

[SA Chris]

[Paul B]

What's missing from t'internet is direct observation and assessment

agreed

a coach can push you harder than you'd probably push yourself in the same circumstances.

Yeah sure, but it can also come from a motivated training partner (the best kind?). I'm not disputing the validity of coaching I'm merely pointing out that a lot of the perceived benefits can be found elsewhere, without spending a penny (or maybe a tenner for a book, that's only 4 f*ck alls to you or I).

Quite so - as with any profession there is a spectrum of capability

And how do you judge that within climbing? It'd be a decision I'd struggle to be able to make. If you go straight to the top then that's easy enough but at the lower end of the spectrum I don't understand how you differentiate a climbing coach from a knowledgeable climber.

[mrjonathanr]

at the lower end of the spectrum I don't understand how you differentiate a climbing coach from a knowledgeable climber.

That's easy. One's free.

[shark]

Quite so - as with any profession there is a spectrum of capability

And how do you judge that within climbing? It'd be a decision I'd struggle to be able to make. If you go straight to the top then that's easy enough but at the lower end of the spectrum I don't understand how you differentiate a climbing coach from a knowledgeable climber.

Much the same as picking a physio or a garage come to that - typically a mix of personal recommendation, trial and error, luck, marketing, proximity, price and availability.

Obviously the answer for Gremlin in this case is Dylan 

[account_inactive]

I think the angle you are coming at this from Paul, is of a talented climber (albeit a weak one now you only climb trad) who would be more that capable of giving coaching advice.  Oh and you also were a member at the school which had members who.................... My point is that you are one of the people who gets to climb with the talented types rather that Joe Blogs from Norwich.

A good coach will be able to analyse your form quickly (within an hour) and advise on a structured program. Not only that they will provide encouragement and feedback. Often coaches (in any sport) are guilty of just handing out strength and conditioning exercises which is quick and easy to do, without targeting the real issues.

It always amazes me why climbers won't shell out for some coaching when it's completely normal in any other sport. 

[Serpico]

Obviously the answer for Gremlin in this case is Dylan 

That would mean blowing Nik off, and Lagers has already done that on the plank of wood thread.
Poor Nik - unloved and unwanted

[nik at work]

That would mean blowing Nik off, and Lagers has already done that on the plank of wood thread.

And I wasn't even going to charge anything (although maybe I should...)

If you go straight to the top then that's easy enough but at the lower end of the spectrum I don't understand how you differentiate a climbing coach from a knowledgeable climber.

Are there that many climbing coaches out there (genuine question)?
I presume you mean top climbing coach rather than top climber (a top climber is not always a great coach). So who is/are the top guys (and gals)? And what do you pay for their advice? And how much are the "lower end of the spectrum" charging? And is there a recognised climbing coach qualification (and I don't mean SPA or CWA) or is it the wild west? I really didn't know there was that much business to be had from climbing. I assumed we were all (rightly or wrongly Shark) cheapskate scruffy twats, or is that just me?

[Serpico]

Are there that many climbing coaches out there (genuine question)?
I presume you mean top climbing coach rather than top climber (a top climber is not always a great coach). So who is/are the top guys (and gals)? And what do you pay for their advice? And how much are the "lower end of the spectrum" charging?

http://www.climbingmasterclass.com/coaching.asp

Scroll down for rates.
I think there's a greater acceptance of coaching darn sarf, or maybe just less stigma and more money.

[nik at work]

 £70/hour

Fuck me, I'm in the wrong game...

[shark]

I think c. £30 an hour is more standard which is comparable with physio rates.

Steve Mac charges £35 per hour

Re. being a stingy twat - "old habits die hard" - as Joe Brown (owner of several climbing shops) reputedly said whilst doggedly hacking away at an abandoned stuck wire at Gogarth.

[Paul B]

Oh and you also were a member at the school which had members who.................... My point is that you are one of the people who gets to climb with the talented types rather that Joe Blogs from Norwich.

Ah sorry I forgot. Walking through those (gortty) doors instantly allows you to mind meld with the training knowledge of the great ice cream makers. You have the voices of history (zippy?) shouting at you to attach one more plate, do one more rep ad infinitum.
Strangely when I was younger (and not living in Sheffield, nor a member of the school), I didn't find it impossible to find motivated people to climb/train with, a few of those people aren't doing so bad these days.

My point is simply this; a lot of the information and benefits of a coach are available for free in a traditional sense through more experienced climbers. If you can't find it, feel free to grab a coach, if you have it and are lacking the finer points get a coach but why not explore other avenues first?

For instance - (sorry simon but its you), did you ask anyone to objectively look at and asses your climbing before you paid for the privilege?

I think there's a greater acceptance of coaching darn sarf, or maybe just less stigma and more money.

Its the money thing. I was told a few years ago that a masterclass was offered at one of the London walls and got an attendance of zero. The reason being when discussed with an expert was that it was priced too low. Up the price, voila, attendance. Supposedly they all did yoga afterwards as well  . This may or may not be accurate although I'm pretty sure they did yoga.

[nik at work]

But are there really that many coaches out there? And are they making money coaching? It's all well and good saying you're a climbing coach and charging £30/hour, but if you're only doing one hour a month with a naive beginner and you spend the rest of your time working in a call-centre or some such it's hardly a great business...

I'm just curious, is there a market out there or are people speculatively advertising this service.

Obviously it would be indiscreet of me to ask this question directly of Dylan...

Does Gresham do coaching at £70/hour 9-5 five days a week, or does he fit a handful of sessions in a month in between running trips/wall sessions/article writing.

And is there a recognised qualification?

[Nibile]

personally I found great benefits from being coached.
one of my long term problems was overtraining: I was never sure I was doing enough, so I often overtrained. being coached solved this problem.
moreover, my coach provided me with varied training schedules, that fought boredom. not needing to think about what to do, I could concentrate on the training itself.

but: ask a professional. I've often been asked to give around my training shcedules and that's a big mistake. coaching must be tailored, so beware coaches that give you answers and ask few questions.

[rich d]

Just out of interest, is effective coaching something that can be done from a distance? Possibly by a questionaire and videos of the coachee (is that a word?) Or does it need to be face to face?

[shark]

For instance - (sorry simon but its you), did you ask anyone to objectively look at and asses your climbing before you paid for the privilege?

As usual I am not quite tuned in to what you are driving at but an intial assessment is part of the coaching process. You have to take some things on trust when paying for a service. There is always a risk that it is money down the drain.

[Paul B]

For instance - (sorry simon but its you), did you ask anyone to objectively look at and asses your climbing before you paid for the privilege?

As usual I am not quite tuned in to what you are driving at but an intial assessment is part of the coaching process. You have to take some things on trust when paying for a service. There is always a risk that it is money down the drain.

Yeah absolutely and I'm not questioninng the service you recieved or anything to do with it (I know nothing of any part of this).
I'm merely asking you, if you sought the information elsewhere before paying for it? Did you ask anybody, from your opinion of my climbing what do you think I'm best at/worst at?

[nai]

I think c. £30 an hour is more standard which is comparable with physio rates.

Steve Mac charges £35 per hour

Interesting, for the cost of a couple of books that will tell you to identify our weaknesses you could have a pro do it and give you a program to work on them.  Seems a pretty good deal and saves you hours of reading which you can then spend training.
If you take up golf or skiing it's unheard of not to use an instructor, there are books which tell you how to do it but not why it's all going wrong or how you could be more efficient.  And surely there are as many intricacies to climbing as there are to those activities.  I've been thinking of trying a coach for a while now but I think my mind has just been made up.

[Paul B]

yeah because nobody has ever learnt to ski from their Dad or a mate who's better than them 

You might say nobody has ever won the winter olympic downhill without but that'd be a little different.

[account_inactive]

I don't think Gresham has any problems filling his diary.  There are plenty of people in London willing to pay top dollar for coaching.  Obviously Neil is aiming at high end clients who can afford those sorts of prices on a regular basis which would normal go to a tennis/golf/ski coach.  Coaching in London is more like personal training in a gym rather than endless analysis and programs and people will pay to climb with a coach or for motivation.

I don't coach much in Sheffield as their isn't the market for it unless you are attached to a wall.  Even then the balance between teaching kids/groups and performance coaching will be skewed.  It's a shame really.

Don't get upset Paul.  I think you underestimate the benefit of training with good climbers even if they are not telling you where to put your feet or what reps to do.  Maybe you had your blinkers on when you arrived at the wall and didn't discussed training with anyone or watch people climb etc etc.  I bet if you had paid for advise you would have been less likely to ignore your weaknesses 

Coaching is a short cut to getting better plain and simple.  There is no right and wrong in training only quicker ways to get to the same place.  Of course as you improve there are often less flaws to correct and periodisation becomes more important to gains.

[shark]

I'm merely asking you, if you sought the information elsewhere before paying for it? Did you ask anybody, from your opinion of my climbing what do you think I'm best at/worst at?

Sorry I misunderstood you. No - I never asked any of my mates to give me a full and objective assessment of my climbing. For starters it is a bit needy, secondly the relationship is different and thirdly they would just tell me what they've always said - that I'm crap and need to boulder more - which is only part of the solution IMO. Every time I meet Paul Reeve he advises me whether I ask for it or not, to do the type of training he happens to be doing at that moment. I've had a few useful tips and pointers but nothing that compares to the assessment that Gresh gave me as one of first guinea pigs 12? years ago and Tom Randall gave me the other day. I'm sure Dylan would do something similar. 

If somebody asked me to give them a full and objective assessment of their climbing I wouldnt have a fucking clue where to start. If I could I would be a coach. And charge for it.

 

[account_inactive]

Paul is right about all the information being out there and it is possible to colate and apply it to yourself if that's the type of person you are (which Paul obviously is).  The problem is surfing through the crap and applying the right training to the right problem.  Does everyone have the time to do this?  I'm more than likely to get a plasterer to sort out my ceiling rather than having a bash myself even though I could have a bash myself after reading a DIY book.  Would I get the same result?  I'd get it done but it wouldn't be as good and it would take me ages.

RichD:  I'm not a fan of the coaching by distance method unless you can get an initial consultation and then at least some contact time with your coach.  I think that's what Stu Littlefair and wife do with their guy in Spain.

[nai]

yeah because nobody has ever learnt to ski from their Dad or a mate who's better than them 

True, I do know people who have learned like that but they have all used an instructor at a later date to iron out a flaw in their technique.  Likely a result of learning the way they did?
Golfers too, even when they play off a very good handicap, have no hesitation in using a coach when something's amiss.   
I suppose it's just a culture thing and in climbing it's not the done thing yet.

[SteG]

£70/hour

well, I only charge 55 
seriously tho, having coached with Gresham on our Font and Kalymnos trips for the last 5 years and also run a bunch of 1:1 sessions, it's very obvious from a coaches point of view that it is extremely beneficial. The main skill a coach brings to a session is the ability to assess a climbers strengths and weaknesses and have the communication skills to provide the relevant advice in a clear and concise fashion - be it technique, training, tactics, lifestyle etc...

I'm just curious, is there a market out there or are people speculatively advertising this service.

Yes, we get a lot of interest via the site, but as someone else said, mostly darn-sarf.
 

  what Dylan said

[rodma]

Re: all the info being out there

There is a hell of a lot of generic training twaddle out there and sifting through it all is almost a full-time job.

The other problem with learning from whoever happens to be around, is that there are plenty of choads down the wall who climb reasonably well, will never improve and are dishing out training advice to others left, right and bloody centre 

Definately worth it, unless you are as lucky as paul b or I or a handful of others