I think John has onsighted 7b or 7b+ in the past if I'm not mistaken.
Quote from: slack---line on October 11, 2010, 01:36:36 pmwould find a convincing argument for bolting a given area but given the stance that all "bolts are bad" which you hold whats the point? You'll still think they're bad, no matter what case is made.You're right, I will. The point of posting was not to give people an opportunity to change my view, but that if bolters don't behave less stupidly than they did at the last CV fight then they will annoy people so much that their bolts will probably get chopped. This would be a Bad Thing and better prevented. My suggestions were my small effort in that direction.
would find a convincing argument for bolting a given area but given the stance that all "bolts are bad" which you hold whats the point? You'll still think they're bad, no matter what case is made.
Quote from: slack---line on October 11, 2010, 01:36:36 pmWhy not save yourself the time and effort of posting here and just attend the BMC meetings (despite the ~300 miles involved) because that is where a compromise will be reached and not here. Not everyone who attends those meetings is registered here and will read your posts.I think I probably will: I didn't intend to but some of the views expressed on here have so incensed me that I just might.
Why not save yourself the time and effort of posting here and just attend the BMC meetings (despite the ~300 miles involved) because that is where a compromise will be reached and not here. Not everyone who attends those meetings is registered here and will read your posts.
However, I intend to go sport climbing in the future. As I say, not doing so won't remove any bolts, and I have some ambitions I hope it will help with. It seems to me that denying myself the opportunity to experience the same pleasures as others would be cutting off my nose to spite my face: much the same as not flying from Heathrow because one doesn't think there should be a fourth runway.
I've been sport climbing about four times, and only then because people with me wanted to go and it was better than nothing. However, I intend to go sport climbing in the future. As I say, not doing so won't remove any bolts, and I have some ambitions I hope it will help with. It seems to me that denying myself the opportunity to experience the same pleasures as others would be cutting off my nose to spite my face: much the same as not flying from Heathrow because one doesn't think there should be a fourth runway. Although mind you I very much doubt whether my personal activities are of any interest to anyone. Still, you did ask.
One of my internet rules, by the way, is that....
Quote from: slack---line on October 11, 2010, 02:13:25 pmPerhaps pro-bolters find the chopping of bolts by anti-bolters stupid and contradictory as it still leaves (often worse) scars on the rock, and the very act itself may encourage/incenses them to go out and bolt again? That would be a bit of a vicious circle.I dare say they do. However, once a meeting decides that bolts shouldn't have been placed, presumably you'd agree that they should be removed? I would have thought most people would think that this task should fall to the people who shouldn't have placed them in the first place, but of course they never, ever do it, so what are you left with? Unilateral chopping and bolt wars are undesirable, of course, which was my original point.Contrasting last time's campaign again, I see BC brought along some photos of the damage, and (absurdly) called the choppers 'vigilantes' and other endearments. This to a meeting he was trying to persuade to his way of thinking, and which contained not only the choppers but a large number of their friends and supporters. Now I'll ask you again; do you think that was a sensible way to go about things, or do you think my small suggestion that it be done differently this time was a good one?
Perhaps pro-bolters find the chopping of bolts by anti-bolters stupid and contradictory as it still leaves (often worse) scars on the rock, and the very act itself may encourage/incenses them to go out and bolt again? That would be a bit of a vicious circle.
I am a stubborn git. Surely you'd noticed?
“Lundy Calling isn't on Lundy, btw - your post suggested you might have thought it was” - JCM
“Really? Just them? We know what the people who are interested in doing sport climbing at any cliff think, surely?” - JCM
“I think if you reread my initial post you would see that what I said was that IF people want to rebolt CV they need to go about it differently.” - JCM
“I rather imagined a fair number were at Raven Tor. Is that particularly chossy?” - JCM
“Bolting fosters a different attitude to the crag which leads to this stuff going on. Remember when the jug fell off Mecca? Lots of support for industrial intervention including tons of sika and steel support rods. Remember when the jug fell off the Ace? Ton's of controversy about it being glued on with a barely visible bit of sika. We think of the Tor as an industrial project, but Stanage as a natural wilderness (alright, that's overstating it a bit)” – Stu Littlefair
“I think Stu is right about bolting leading to, breaking down inhibitions about, going hand in hand with, or whatever, sika, and indeed chipping too…” - JCM
“what about Ecstasy and Justified and Ancient? Both on excellent rock; both with artificial holds. The one on Ecstasy has been accepted and the route even described as a classic.” – Stu Littlefair
“In general, we might get a lot more support if we were totally accepting that sport climbing comes with a lot of negatives. We're not going to change people's minds about it anyway, so why waste time arguing the point and causing friction.” – Stu Littlefair
I don't think we should have put bolts in in the first place, but once my views don't prevail and they're there, what purpose would it serve me not using them?