[Jaspersharpe]

It's okay Cofe I've edited his post so he owes you £50 

Stick something in there about Malc too and 8c+, he loves that shit.

 

[Ru]

Ru, just think, Esther Ratzen MP, how to demean politics even further.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[Bonjoy]

I don't like the idea of the "none of the above" vote. Who exactly is this intended to be aimed at? The incoming party will only have to look at the amount of votes they received to know that not everyone likes them. The "none of the above" vote seems to rely on the, perhaps unconscious, assumption that there is a "them" that belongs to neither main party that will take note.

The message of a ‘none of the above’ vote is directed at the parties listed on the ballot paper and the public/media at large. As things stand currently a lot of people (I hasten to add I’m not among them) don’t vote, not out of apathy/lazyness but out of disillusionment and lack of faith in any available option. ‘None of the above’ gives a picture of what proportion of voters are plain lazy and what proportion has no faith. It may have no direct consequence on an individual result but it does represent a message of sorts where otherwise the low turnout could be dismissed as apathy. Over time this message may alter policy.

[BB]

Can we stop talking politics and have some more of the funny poster things please. They woz well funny. 

[Ru]

‘None of the above’ gives a picture of what proportion of voters are plain lazy and what proportion has no faith. It may have no direct consequence on an individual result but it does represent a message of sorts where otherwise the low turnout could be dismissed as apathy. Over time this message may alter policy.

Whilst that may make an interesting statistic, I doubt it would change anything. I'd also guess that you could glean the same information from exiting data.

[Bonjoy]

Which existing data? I share your doubts as to whether having it would influence any actual policy making, but the point is, not having it is guaranteed to have no effect. So slight chance versus no chance. Given that the cost/difficulty involved is negligible and there is no obvious negative effect, why not give people the option?

[Sloper]

I'd love there to be hoards of highly intelligent, honest, forward thinking, morally unquestionable, uncorruptable men and women willing to take on huge responsibility, that are sitting around waiting to be voted into power instead, There is, of course, nothing stopping anyone attempting to become an MP themselves and doing things differently.

Esther Ratzen is going to stand in Luton south, the constituency of Marget Moran who was caught screwing the expense system.

PS I know it might se sub judice but can you understand why the specimen charges of false accounting aren't backed with a charge of forgery in respect of the allegedly false invoices or in the other cases a straight fraud?

Wouldn't indictment rule 14 require that?

[DaveC]

alert!!!

Down here we have compulsory voting with a preferential system for electing the lower house (Representatives) and a proportional system by state for electing the upper house (Senate) - underpinned by a written constitution that can only be changed by a full referendum. It isn't perfect but it does work pretty well with better than 98% turnout for both federal & state elections with less than 2 % of ballot papers being spoilt or left blank.

Tom, I may agree with you in principle that such a system can lead to government by the lowest common denominator but at the end of the day if you live in a democracy then the "proles" for whom you show such contempt at times are as entitled to have their say in the running of the country as you are. The system you have there currently is a joke retained because it pretty much guarantees the status quo which suits the major parties and their base supporters. Brown's suddenly raising the prospect of electoral reform is patently a cynical exercise in attempted vote-grabbing and there is no way his party will follow through with it after the next election if they win (and neither would the torys as they have even more to lose by changing the system.

[Sloper]

Sorry Dave but you're talking shite, the proles should be allowed to vote on xfactor or what ever the fuck it's called; their opinion on things like pfi, money supply policy and such like is as relevant as my views on aussie rules footie.

[DaveC]

You're entitled to your opinion Tom but at the end of the day it's just your opinion and is based on little or no experience of alternative electoral systems.  As much as I cannot stand the 'bogan' masses in this country (cultureless morons for the most part) they have somehow managed to elect governments that have kept us out of recession for pretty much this whole GFC period and we now have one of the strongest economies in the world! There is a major element of luck in this but some of it is because compulsory voting almost forces people to take some interest in how their country/state/local authority is run - basically if you've got to turn up then you might as well do something useful like register a valid vote. Boring as the subject may be, most people I know here, regardless of socio-economic status, display a remarkable grasp of political and economic realities when you actually chat with them. Do you think the average resident of a Victorian housing commission estate is that much smarter than the average council estate resident over there?

Oh yes, how many of the people who are voting over there now do you think have any real understanding on issues like money supply? How much of a grasp do you have? If you were REALLY looking for sound economic management as a priority over there at the moment you would be voting LibDem simply because their leader & treasury spokesman (Cable & Clegg?) have obviously got a much better grasp of economics than either of the main parties currently. Yes I have been reading up on this, I'm currently studying economics & political science at the local uni and there is a lot of overlap between them at the moment.

[remus]

Sorry Dave but you're talking shite, the proles should be allowed to vote on xfactor or what ever the fuck it's called; their opinion on things like pfi, money supply policy and such like is as relevant as my views on aussie rules footie.

Prole.

[slackline]

alert!!!

Down here we have compulsory voting with a preferential system for electing the lower house (Representatives) and a proportional system by state for electing the upper house (Senate) - underpinned by a written constitution that can only be changed by a full referendum. It isn't perfect but it does work pretty well with better than 98% turnout for both federal & state elections with less than 2 % of ballot papers being spoilt or left blank.

That turnout is likely because people don't want to pay a $50 AUD fine (think it was that whilst I was out there) for not voting, so they go along and fill in the boxes.  Some will have a clue about what they are doing, others will just put whatever they last heard on the way into the polling station as their top choice.  No idea what the ratio of these will be.

Had an interesting discussion with an Australian whilst living out there, and I pointed out that voting shouldn't be compulsory because under a "democratic system" an individual has just as much entitlement to choose not to vote as they do to choose who they vote for, and that fining people for making this choice was ludicrous.  I don't think he quite got the point I was trying to make as his response was that you may as well not punish people for committing murder (i.e. he didn't see that I was challenging the principle/law, but instead thought I was challenging the consequences of failing to comply with it).

[SA Chris]

Sorry Dave but you're talking shite, the proles should be allowed to vote on xfactor or what ever the fuck it's called; their opinion on things like pfi, money supply policy and such like is as relevant as my views on aussie rules footie.

Prole.

I was going to go for "cock"

[DaveC]

I was going to go for "cock"

Tom's a friend so I take it in good spirit. 

That turnout is likely because people don't want to pay a $50 AUD fine (think it was that whilst I was out there) for not voting, so they go along and fill in the boxes.  Some will have a clue about what they are doing, others will just put whatever they last heard on the way into the polling station as their top choice.  No idea what the ratio of these will be.

Had an interesting discussion with an Australian whilst living out there, and I pointed out that voting shouldn't be compulsory because under a "democratic system" an individual has just as much entitlement to choose not to vote as they do to choose who they vote for, and that fining people for making this choice was ludicrous.  I don't think he quite got the point I was trying to make as his response was that you may as well not punish people for committing murder (i.e. he didn't see that I was challenging the principle/law, but instead thought I was challenging the consequences of failing to comply with it).

I suspect the Australian who spoke to you thought you were full of shit on the subject and I must say I'm inclined to think the same. The system here cannot force you to vote, it simply requires that you register and then submit a ballot paper. What you put on it is your own business but my personal experience is that most people here are far more engaged with politics than the average Brit. Indeed they can be quite the bunch of bores on the subject. As I said in my earlier post, if you're going to turn up you may as well do something useful.  Of course, this may change as succeeding generations join the electorate but at this time, our political and electoral systems are still taught quite extensively in all schools (can the same be said in Britain I wonder?)

[Sloper]

All the perils of posting when pished. 

But the point remains valid despite the provocative language, the average voter is not well placed to consider complex matters whether it's accapi, homeopathy or the appropriate volume and velocity of money supply.

[slackline]

That turnout is likely because people don't want to pay a $50 AUD fine (think it was that whilst I was out there) for not voting, so they go along and fill in the boxes.  Some will have a clue about what they are doing, others will just put whatever they last heard on the way into the polling station as their top choice.  No idea what the ratio of these will be.

Had an interesting discussion with an Australian whilst living out there, and I pointed out that voting shouldn't be compulsory because under a "democratic system" an individual has just as much entitlement to choose not to vote as they do to choose who they vote for, and that fining people for making this choice was ludicrous.  I don't think he quite got the point I was trying to make as his response was that you may as well not punish people for committing murder (i.e. he didn't see that I was challenging the principle/law, but instead thought I was challenging the consequences of failing to comply with it).

I suspect the Australian who spoke to you thought you were full of shit on the subject and I must say I'm inclined to think the same.

Clearly the system was not explained to me accurately.   What stood out to me was when someone mentioned that they got fined $50 for not voting, however as I wasn't entitled to vote I didn't bother investigating it further as it didn't affect me.

The system here cannot force you to vote, it simply requires that you register and then submit a ballot paper. What you put on it is your own business...

Presumably it is failure to do this that incurs the fine?  This sounds contradictory to me though, is the submission of a ballot paper (irrespective of its contents) not the process/act of voting?

As I wrote above, the right to vote should encompass the right to not vote if you do not wish to participate in the electoral process.  Fining you for making this choice is in my opinion unjust.  Voting is a privilege and should not be a state sanctioned mandatory obligation.  If someone chooses to exercise that privilege they can do, if they choose not to then they should not be penalised for doing so.

... but my personal experience is that most people here are far more engaged with politics than the average Brit. Indeed they can be quite the bunch of bores on the subject. As I said in my earlier post, if you're going to turn up you may as well do something useful.  Of course, this may change as succeeding generations join the electorate but at this time,

Would this exist without the prospect of being fined though?

our political and electoral systems are still taught quite extensively in all schools (can the same be said in Britain I wonder?)

I was taught about politics and the different forms of electoral systems that are used around the world (as opposed to just that used in the UK) when I was at school.

[Johnny Brown]

the average voter is not well placed to consider complex matters whether it's accapi, homeopathy or the appropriate volume and velocity of money supply.

Spoken like a true tory.

Your opinion of the average is rather sad.

I don't vote based on complex fiscal policy either though. Its simply not the most important thing in my life, nor do I believe it the most important thing in society or government. I suspect many of 'the proles' feel similarly.

[Sloper]

Sad but accurate, I wonder what percentage of the people stopped in the street in sheffield could point to argentina, iran and north korea on the map? I'd guess fewer than 1 in 10.

I wonder how many could explain even in the most basic language how the cost of our borrowing goes up or down? 1 in 30?


We have an astonishingly poorly educated public and yet we expect them to join in a meaningful debate and exercise their ballot on the basis of the responses from the main protagonists, utterly deluded.  You might as well ask them 'blades' (Labour) or 'owls' (Tory) for the  thought that they give to the issues underpinning the political differences.

Anyway back on topic, I love this one http://jontomes.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a8b584c2970b01310f1ca152970c

Clue it's a Labour MP who's been charged with false accounting.

[Johnny Brown]

What relevance does pub-quiz geography have to an election? I daresay Blunkett couldn't point to Iran on a map either, does it prevent him having a grasp of the issues?

Ditto borrowing. Folk can see the overall effect on society - that's what matters.

[Sloper]

Because foreign policy is important, you say folks can see the effects on society maybe they can see the effects but if they don't understand the causes then they're unlikely to be able to decide, in an informed manner, between the competing arguments.

If fatdoc or one of the other medics on here posits a argument backed with evidence and experience then I'm going to take their position (in the absence of other equally well placed people arguing the opposite) as read because I only have an 'E' in A Level Biology.

Have a look at this graph. http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=GBPUSD&ss=FTStandard

We buy oil in US%, so when the price of oil goes up and the price of the dollar goes up the rise in the price of oil is magnified.  The cost of oil feeds into the cost of fuel which has a very short lag feeding into inflation.

Inflation means that (as your pay doesn't keep pace) you're worse off month on month which means you have less disposable income and therefore can spend less, reducing demand.

The price of £Sterling is weakening against even the Euro which has been pushed hard by both external and internal factors, one of the key reasons is because we ran a deficit for 6 years during the 'boom' (unlike the keynesian position which would have been to build a surplus to use as stimulation in a downturn) and our risk of default is growing.  We're now ranking very close to third to default.

Imagine you're in a boozer and the Duke of Devonshire wants to borrow a pony and promises to repay a pony, no risk right so you lend him the cash?  Now imagine if the tramp wants to borrow a £5 and promises to give you back £10 well would you lend them the money.

Anyway I'm off to the works

[Moo]

I coulnt give too much of a toss about who gets in at the next election as long as it aint the BNP or the Tories because the BNP are just wrong and Tories are twats

[Sloper]

Get used to being disappointed then. 

[BB]

I coulnt give too much of a toss about who gets in at the next election as long as it aint the BNP or the Tories because the BNP are just wrong and Tories are twats

You were making an amusing quip, that pokes fun at the previous statements about 'the average voter', right?

I do hope so because if not, you've proven slacker's point.

[Moo]

indeed bb, come on guys lighten up its only the running of the country we're on about

[Johnny Brown]

Sloper you condescending git, I didn't ask for an explanation of inflation, I understand it. I asked for an explanation of why you claim fiscal policy and foreign policy are the only considerations worthy of voters' attention. I believe its quite possible to contribute usefully to the democratic process without considering them, however good your understanding of either.