[Sloper]

JB, it appears that you're suggesting that there are valid research studies demonstrating that there might be a causal benefit and that 'further research is needed', which is strongly suggestive of a degree of support for homeopathy and other nonsense.

I'm not in favour of banning anything (as a general stance) but I am in favour of requiring the claims made to be evidenced and until that time preventing the sale of the 'treatments' and the support that they receive from the state.

Belief in alternative remedies are very similar to belief in religion and one has about as much chance of a rational discussion with a true believer of either. 

[Johnny Brown]

I am in favour of requiring the claims made to be evidenced and until that time preventing the sale of the 'treatments'

I can't agree with that. Do you think religion should be prevented until evidenced? Why force such an activity underground? Its not going to go away. Plus I think such a rule would inhibit innovation, leaving the development of medicine to those with a massive budget. As someone with chronic nail fungus I'm well aware of the ineffective, harmful cures peddled by apathetic drug compaines whilst cheap, effective, but unresearched, unproven alternatives exist.

Yet again, let me state I'm not a believer in homeopathy. Being intrigued by the few accounts of a positive effect is a result of having an enquiring scientific mind. Dismissing them on the grounds of beef with the supposed mechanism is not good science.

What are everyone's views on acupuncture? Proven results, supposed mechanism at best unlikely. 

[mrjonathanr]

I can't agree with that. Do you think religion should be prevented until evidenced? 

Now that's an idea worth considering. Could we have peer-reviewed papers on homeopathy, holy water, transubstantiated wine and saints relics also?

[Jim]

definately

[Fiend]

What hippy-placebo-alternative would you prefer? One with ingredients?

Yes. It would also have to taste good

Like marmite??

[Sloper]

Religions are not purporting to sell and article of faith, they're selling what they claim are medicines, drugs, treatments and even in some cases cures.

Why force the activity underground?  Because it's intellectually bankrupt and nothing short of a scam.

There will be effective treatments where the pathway will be as yet, not understood or the method of causality unknown, but that is irrelevant, the point is that the treatment works. 

My shaky understanding of physics is such (and Stu please feel free to step in) that gravity by some explanations is due to a particle called the graviton, which as yet has not been described etc despite this we know gravity works.

The dismissal on the grounds of the supposed mechanism is good science if the best available evidence shows that the supposed mechanisms are wholly flawed and the outcomes claimed cannot be replicated.

as I have stated before, the method by which alcohol affected the body was not understood for thousands of years after the consequences could be demonstrated.  This lack of understanding didn't mean the Dyionisus didn't get wasted.

[Jim]

What hippy-placebo-alternative would you prefer? One with ingredients?

Yes. It would also have to taste good

Like marmite??

[El Mocho]

I've heard some interesting first hand reports, which I'm simply not prepared to dismiss entirely. I am quite prepared to believe that they are placebo or nocebo effects, although some don't fit with how I'd expect them to work (as I said, administered by cynics to infants).

Was that me?

Neither me or the wife believe in the science of Homeopathy but in desperation (the little one had been waking up 10+ times EVERY night for over 6 months (and we are not stupid, we had tried pretty much everything to get her to sleep better)) we went to see a homeopath as a friend recommended one (also it only cost £20 so not our life savings) we got given some shiznit (with perhaps a trace of opium in it?) when the lady started talking about the 'science' behind it we asked her to stop. She said the sleep would be the same for about 2 weeks and would then improve.

After 2 weeks and a day (of waking 10+ times every night) we had a night where she woke 8 times, the next night 7 etc (never got better than 4 times!)

Although May is quite bright I don't think she understood much of it all at 12months old. I had been very reluctant to go to the homeopath (I am tight about money and didn't think it would make any difference) so felt pretty negative about going and it was also me who put May to bed and mostly put her back to sleep, I didn't change her routine at all and she just started to improve.

About 6 months later in Switzerland Mays sleep got worse again. After putting up with it for a few weeks we phoned back to the uk and got told to try some other remedy. Our friends (in switz) had a bunch of homeopathic stuff anyway but not what we needed so they said to just go to the chemist as all chemists in Switzerland stock it and many have very knowledgeable staff in homeopathic stuff. We got the stuff and it worked again.

I still don't believe the shit they talk, and would never use it for anything serious (to be honest I will prob never use it again unless Arnica is homeopathic in which case I am a believer as that stuff is fucking amazing)

I haven't read all the posts above - I am sure I agree with what most are saying about the lack of evidence, praying on the vulnerable etc but it worked very well for us.

[Sloper]

Ben, there is no science in homeopathy.

There are no active ingredients in homeopathic remedies.

What happened to you and your daughter was nothing to do with the sugar and start pill or water that you gave her.

I've just taken Hugo up a small train and he's suddenly stopped crying and I think will be asleep in two minutes.   Life is complex. Medicine is complex. We are complex.  Homeopathy is simple, it's quite simply bollocks.

[El Mocho]

I know you are right there is no Science in Homeopathy. Life is complex (and often fucking knackering) but at the time this made it all a lot better for us (on more than 1 occasion). I think it was possibly the best £20 I have ever spent, (I used to sleep 9 hours every night pre child) I don't care that we may have got the same improvement for free!

Has anyone tried the teething powder? (comes in a green cardboard box?) we used that and teething gel and the powders worked a treat. I didn't know it at the time but have since found out they are homeopatic. I imagine giving a teething infant any powder would have worked the same but I would be happy to use these again as they are pretty cheap and a lot more handy than remembering to bring a little packet of flour or something.

[El Mocho]

ps I don't want people to think I am defending homeopathy. We didn't belive in it but tried it as we were desperate. It (or something) worked. We tried it again, later and it (or something) worked. It worked on a toddler who didn't and still doesn't have any idea what homeopathy is (she knows who doctors are though, those bastards stick big needles in her arm whilst her dad passes out in the corner of the room).

I don't know what made May sleep better, as much as it all fitted with what the homeopath said I still don't beleve in that stuff.

[Sloper]

No of course I haven't tried homeopathic teething powder, if Hugo needs something to resolve pain then he get's something that's proven to work (and by god I don't agree with drugging chlidren just for a quiet night, hence I'm still dicking around on here while Paula tries to settle Hugo).

I really don't understand why anyone would spend good money on pure water or a sugar pill.

http://www.fdhom.co.uk/

I'm sure the fact that your daughter slept made you feel better, but let's not confuse the reasons why.  Do you think if your pure water was 20p it would have been as effective? I would suggest not, because you would respond differently.

What worked was that you intervened with something, you kicked off the mummy cuddle / train / correct blanked response and that's all.  But to be blunt you are, in effect defending homeopathy.

[drdeath]

Sloper, I love you man, but you better not be dissing Calpol....cause Calpol fu*ckin rocks, this is a fact not open to debate....(much like Homeopathy being a crock of toss...)

[Houdini]

Hopefully it'll turn into another Jonestown.  Look it up.

[butterworthtom]

Regression to the mean. Most problems get better by themselves, if you happen to have taken homeopathy and your symptoms get better, it doesn't mean that the homeopathy actually did anything. The ritual of homeopathy, such as visiting a homeopath, and all the witchcraft that go with it help to make it a more effective placebo.

[Johnny Brown]

Actually Ben, you weren't who I was thinking of. My sister, who shares my science based education and well developed scorn gene, used some homeopathic stuff on her 1 year old and the results were impressive. Instant cure, repeated whenever the problem reccurred. Literally unbelievable, a bit like Sloper donning an accapi top and flashing Brad Pit. Though this actually happened.

The ritual of homeopathy, such as visiting a homeopath, and all the witchcraft that go with it help to make it a more effective placebo.

Exactly. Though its hardly witchcraft. Its more like science being applied to ensure no active ingredients. Placebos work, we know that, in some cases they are the most effective treatment. Hence we need a system of handing out placebos as part of health care. I can't imagine any doctor dreaming up a better system than homeopathy.

[slackline]

Placebos work, we know that, in some cases they are the most effective treatment. Hence we need a system of handing out placebos as part of health care. I can't imagine any doctor dreaming up a better system than homeopathy.

The placebo effect is quite powerful and well documented.  Yes people do benefit from seeing a doctor and are simply after a pill to take and then they "feel better".  Look at how many people think antibiotics are useful why you have a cold/flu (which are caused by viruses).

But then why not market it like that!  Or at least investigate each objectively and see if there is a genuine quantifiable biological effect, and it could then be developed further and benefit more people!  Those that don't you could just have listed as coded placebo tablets that are given to patients, but they're told that they will have an effect and help (could even draft up a book on it so all doctors say the same placebo tablet AR53 has a given effect for a given condition). 

Oh wait, thats unethical isn't it, imagine the uproar the press, and in turn the public who then get on board with it, would have if it was discovered that the NHS was prescribing drugs that have no quantifiable effect and act through the placebo effect!!!

[SA Chris]

My tuppence worth.

Fuck it, live and let live. If people need a touchstone in their life, be it religion, lucky charms, horoscopes, fervently supporting a football team, believing bouldering is the best thing in the world ever ever, or taking sugar pills in the belief that it will make them better, leave them to it. There are worse evils in the world than homeopathic medicine, which you could all spend your time fighting about.

And fretting that your hard earned taxes are being spent on it, well likewise there are many places where my tax pounds are being squandered at a much faster rate.

[dave]

I think what is interesting is the reaction you get in this thread to homeophathic shamanism compared to the nexus accapi voodoo thread.

[slackline]

My tuppence worth.

Fuck it, live and let live. If people need a touchstone in their life, be it religion, lucky charms, horoscopes, fervently supporting a football team, believing bouldering is the best thing in the world ever ever, or taking sugar pills in the belief that it will make them better, leave them to it. There are worse evils in the world than homeopathic medicine, which you could all spend your time fighting about.

And fretting that your hard earned taxes are being spent on it, well likewise there are many places where my tax pounds are being squandered at a much faster rate.

Yeah fuck it, I'll not bother working in Medical Research with the mis-guided hope that it will benefit society as a whole and help individuals recover faster from injuries, receive more effective health care and overall improve the quality of life etc. etc. 

Let people do whatever they want and ignore the huge amounts of knowledge that have been collated and refined over the centuries.  In fact sod it, lets all go back to living in caves and wattle & daub huts*.


One thing I've failed to make the distinction between in this thread is the difference between homeopathy (dilution to the point of zero) and herbal remedies (plant based extracts that are still present, e.g. tea-tree oil or ganja).  One is a sham the other is not and the later group shouldn't be tarred with the brush of the former.


* Yes I realise there are a lot of people in the world who do live like that as there are huge inequalities in standards of living around the world, but I do believe that Western societies have a responsibility to share the medical care/treatments with the rest of the world and this has been quite effective in the past e.g. eradication of smallpox, current attempts to educate about safe sex (nicely compounded by the twat of a pope who people turn to for spiritual guidance when they're dying having ignored the scientific advice to use condoms!!!)

[SA Chris]

Whatever. Do what you like. Actually wish I hadn't bothered posting now, as some people are getting a bit rabid about this.

[cofe]

I think everything must be black or white, right or wrong, on or off, 1 or 0. Life is much more interesting like that.

[slackline]

Whatever. Do what you like.

Cheers, I usually do   

I was being purposefully sarcastic (the lowest form of wit) to make the point that I, personally, am aggrieved that such hocus pocus nonsense is allowed to perpetuate because I currently* work at a clinical trials unit and am aware of the amount of regulation that governs the development of drugs and treatments and yet homeopathy continues unregulated and with unproven efficacy.

* Albeit it relatively recently, prior to that I worked in genetic epidemiology trying to identify genes that underlie complex disorders (but my impetus was the same, furthering knowledge and doing something that helps humanity).  I don't think that I can solve all the worlds problems or will even work on anything thats revolutionary, but every little bit helps.

[Johnny Brown]

Guess what Slackers, you can do both. Allowing unproven drugs on the market doesn't devalue the proven ones.


On the one hand you laugh at the fact that homeopathic cures are only water, the next you insist on regulation. Since you're king of black-or-white, either allow it may work and insist on regulation, or accept it is just water and make it freely available.

One of the several points I've made on this thread which folk have chosen to ignore is that of cures for nail fungus. The ones that have been researched and 'proven' by the medical companies are shit. Long term pill-taking, poor rates of effectiveness, high rates of subsequent reinfection and a catalogue of common side effects from liver damage to suicidal tendencies (nearly lost my dad to that). For whatever reason there isn't much ongoing research or development. Search the internet though, and you'll get a load of topical alternatives that actually work - Vicks vaporub being the lead contender. Should I wait until its sanctioned by the WHO?

Too much control restricts innovation.

[SA Chris]

I, personally, am aggrieved that such hocus pocus nonsense is allowed to perpetuate because I currently* work at a clinical trials unit and am aware of the amount of regulation that governs the development of drugs and treatments and yet homeopathy continues unregulated and with unproven efficacy.

No shit. I  don't need a degree to work that out.