[slackline]

This is a brilliant idea (IMO)...

Homeopathy Theres Nothing in It : The 10:23 Mass Overdose Event

At 10:23am on January 30th, more than three hundred homeopathy sceptics nationwide will be taking part in a mass homeopathic 'overdose' in protest at Boots' continued endorsement and sale of homeopathic remedies, and to raise public awareness about the fact that homeopathic remedies have nothing in them.
10
Days22
Hours25
Minutes13
Seconds

Sceptics and consumer rights activists will publicly swallow an entire bottle of homeopathic 'pillules' to demonstrate that these 'remedies', prepared according to a long-discredited 18th century ritual, are nothing but sugar pills.

The protest will raise public awareness about the reality of homeopathy, and put further pressure on Boots to live up to its responsibilites as the 'scientist on the high street' and stop selling treatments which do not work.

Unfortunately I doubt it will have any real effect and such nonsense pills with "engrams of molecules" ( ) left in them will continue to be sold.

BTW - I'm not knocking "alternative" medicine as I do not believe there is such a thing, medication/treatments either work or they don't, FACT.

[dave]

good stuff.

[Fiend]

Once again the anti- fanatics are as tedious as the pro- fanatics.

I think there's a lot better and more worthy causes in this world to fight for.

[BenF]

Agreed, fantastic idea.  Some kind of publicity stunt seems a great way to open people's eyes since for some reason evidence based research doesn't seem to be doing so.  I usually find that explaining the process of "succussion" to someone quickly raises their level of scepticism about these "medicines".

Succussion is a vital part of preparing a homeopathic placebo remedy and involves striking the mixture (of water and f*ck all active ingredients) on a special wooden striking board covered in leather on one side and stuffed with horsehair.   Now that's the kind of SCIENCE that I'd trust my health to.  Awesome bit of quackery.

[Jaspersharpe]

I think there's a lot better and more worthy causes in this world to fight for.

 

[BenF]

Once again the anti- fanatics are as tedious as the pro- fanatics.

I think there's a lot better and more worthy causes in this world to fight for.

Indeed there are many more pressing issues, but surely its better to encourage a rational approach to medicine and science?  After all, people are frequently encouraged to abandon conventional (tested) methods of treatment, in favour of this nonsense.  Often believing that they are instead using a safer, more natural form of treatment to the one being offered by evidence based empirical research.

[slackline]

Once again the anti- fanatics are as tedious as the pro- fanatics.

I think there's a lot better and more worthy causes in this world to fight for.

Completely disagree with you here.

Time, money and resources could be far better spent on medical treatments that work.

You wouldn't believe the amount of protocols, administrative, ethical, regulatory approval paperwork/bodies/approvals that is required for using Investigative Medicinal Products (IMPs) in clinical trials or indeed just simple technologies that don't fall under the term of medicinal products (e.g. electro-stimulator to treat drop-foot in patients) that are being trialled.

All of this is required before drugs/treatments/technologies are bought to the NHS/general populace and they serve a very good purpose...

To ensure that the product is effective and works!

Selling hooky potions and lotions and convincing people that they are as effective as treatments which have been subjected to SCIENTIFIC testing undermines and detracts from the ones that do work.

Stu made just this point (and this is probably where I should have stuck this post, but forgot to search for that thread, admins feel free to merge if you can be arsed).

Have you taken any of the following for your thrombosis?

Aconitum napellus
Arnica montana
Belladonna atropa
Bothrops lanceolatus
Hamamelis virginica
Lachesis
Pulsatilla nigricans.

Or have you gone with the advice and recommendations of your doctor?

EDIT : I'll be lazy and propose what I did before

The placebo effect is quite powerful and well documented.  Yes people do benefit from seeing a doctor and are simply after a pill to take and then they "feel better".  Look at how many people think antibiotics are useful why you have a cold/flu (which are caused by viruses).

But then why not market it like that!  Or at least investigate each objectively and see if there is a genuine quantifiable biological effect, and it could then be developed further and benefit more people!  Those that don't you could just have listed as coded placebo tablets that are given to patients, but they're told that they will have an effect and help (could even draft up a book on it so all doctors say the same placebo tablet AR53 has a given effect for a given condition). 

Oh wait, thats unethical isn't it, image the uproar the press, and in turn the public who then get on board with it, would have if it was discovered that the NHS was prescribing drugs that have no quantifiable effect and act through the placebo effect!!!

[Sloper]

I'm looking forward to a few pints in the Lescar with the simon singh talk on the 6th!

http://sheffield.skepticsinthepub.org/

[Sloper]

Once again the anti- fanatics are as tedious as the pro- fanatics.

I think there's a lot better and more worthy causes in this world to fight for.

yeah fucking top roping students, purge and burn, we must stop this cancer.

  I wonder if there's an alternative rememdy for students, can one dilute a student 10^30? if so what do you get a kindergarden brat with a 'boycott isreal t' shirt?

[BenF]

Good post Slackline, with nice research/evidence to back your point up too.  Oh yeah, that's what science is about; producing reliable evidence in a valid way.  Rather than daft quackery based on at best unreliable anecdotal evidence and lies, and not always well intentioned lies.

[Jaspersharpe]

Are you trying to say that Holy Water doesn't work for cancer and stuff and that dinosaurs existed? Whatever next!? Crazy scientists.

[slackline]

Are you trying to say that Holy Water doesn't work for cancer and stuff and that dinosaurs existed? Whatever next!? Crazy scientists.

Holy Water only works for leprosy 

[Johnny Brown]

I agree with Fiend. Even if the pills contain nothing, that doesn't mean handing out free sugar pills would have the same effect. I'm not sure its harming anyone.

I'm not knocking "alternative" medicine as I do not believe there is such a thing, medication/treatments either work or they don't, FACT.

I know a few sets of parents who use homeopathic remedies on their infants and swear by them - despite being total sceptics at the start. How do you explain that? Presumably they are projecting the placebo effect onto their child? Either way, in some cases, it works, FACT. Whether or not that is backed up by a double-blind test on 1000+ folk is of no interest to a parent whose screaming child has just been magically silenced by some homeopathic magic beans. What is of interest is where you get more beans.

[GCW]

I'm not knocking "alternative" medicine as I do not believe there is such a thing, medication/treatments either work or they don't, FACT.

Either way, in some cases, it works, FACT.

Have you fuckers been taken in by that "Dettol Protects- Fact" bullshit?

[Jim]

Fiend and Johnny have gone into the boredom zone - agnosticization!

I know a few sets of parents who use homeopathic remedies on their infants and swear by them

I know of loads of parents that insist on pouring bottles of calpol down their kids necks, fair enough if they are actually ill. We didn't even manage to use 1 bottle in 2 years, we're only on the 2nd bottle cos the first one went a bit manky and we threw it away. Anyway the point is; its all a load of shit.

Either way, in some cases, it works, FACT.

what works and whats fact? the projected placebo effect. I think you are severely underestimating how powerfull the placebo effect is

[Johnny Brown]

No I'm not. I'm quite prepared to believe its entirely a placebo. But I do find it fascinating that the most compelling first-hand evidence I've heard concerns infants who would seem to be the least likely to show such an effect, especially when handed out by a parent sceptical of its effects. (And I know the parents well enough to not dismiss them as idiots or hippies. I'd freely laugh them out of the house if I caught them wearing Accapi though.)

I think SCIENCE is at its best when exploring what we don't know about the world, rather than trying to confirm what we think we know. Not having a mechanism for a process is not reason to ignore the process.

[Sloper]

I agree with Fiend. Even if the pills contain nothing, that doesn't mean handing out free sugar pills would have the same effect. I'm not sure its harming anyone.

I'm not knocking "alternative" medicine as I do not believe there is such a thing, medication/treatments either work or they don't, FACT.

I know a few sets of parents who use homeopathic remedies on their infants and swear by them - despite being total sceptics at the start. How do you explain that? Presumably they are projecting the placebo effect onto their child? Either way, in some cases, it works, FACT. Whether or not that is backed up by a double-blind test on 1000+ folk is of no interest to a parent whose screaming child has just been magically silenced by some homeopathic magic beans. What is of interest is where you get more beans.

No it doesn't, other things will have happened, the cause of the problem self resolved, or was resolved by placebo aka a mummy or just paying them attention, a cuddle or by self deception.

I wonder if these folk would pay for a prayer from a priest, rabbi, imam etc and expect it to work?

People say that homeopathy is harmless, but there's one contributor on here who lost a cousin (or similar) aged 2 days because the childs parents didn't 'do' conventional medicine.

I have a number of friends who believe in this bollocks and some who believe in religion, as far as I'm concerned religon has a far better evidential base.

[SA Chris]

So where is the line officially drawn between herbal remedy and homeopathic bunkum?

[GCW]

The thing is, if these alternative methods are claimed to work (ie they have an effect) then they must affect the body somehow.  Ergo they can potentially have side effects.

All medicines need to be fully tested.  Now if these alternative treatments are claimed to work, whatis the argument against using the same testing and regulation as with pharmaceuticals?  Surely that's the logical conclusion?

[Jim]

give me some crystal healing first.
Next you'll be telling us you believe in ghosts

[Sloper]

So where is the line officially drawn between herbal remedy and homeopathic bunkum?

Homeopathy is dilution to the point of zero.

From my pub quiz (rather than pub med) knowledge

Vincristine (a cancer drug) comes from the perriwinkle,
Digitalis (heart drug) comes from the fox glove
I can't remember what belladona is used for but it's "fo real'
Diamorpheine, poppies
asprin, hazel?

I'd eat a kilo of hompeopathic heroine at 10-30 but .1g of the real thing would probably kill me.

So real arnica applied topically may have some effect, no arnica ingested = nowt.

I hope this helps.

[Johnny Brown]

Many herbal remedies available are stronger than prescription drugs. As Sloper says, some have become prescription drugs. Why haven't the rest been extensively tested? Perhaps there's no money in it for the pharmaceutical companies. I expect there is an extremely strong correlation between how extensively a drug is tested and its subsequent profitability. Pesonally I believe hippies selling herbs are more likely to be concerned with 'doing good' and 'causing no harm' than the collected shareholders of smithklinebeecham, but then I'm a cynic.

Next you'll be telling us you believe in ghosts

Interesting, so whatt do you believe in? Unexplained auditory/ visual hallucinations? Or do you just ignore everything you don't like the sound of?

Delete as applicable: Nige is a liar/ idiot/ drugged up fool/ a man who saw a ghost.

[GCW]

I can't remember what belladona is used for but it's "fo real'

Deadly nightshade, it contains atropine and hyoscine.
I claim my £5.

[Sloper]

JB,

A few points

1. testing is massively expensive
2. some things aren't tested because they've be proven by field trials; eg morpheine.
3. as far as I'm aware the big pharma companies spend millions looking for new naturally occuring compounds to isolate and synthasise to form the basis for new drugs.

Moving on,

Would you go to an alternative mechanic to fix your car?
How much do you think homeopathic shops and their suppliers make.
I eally enjoy black pepper oil in a hot bath (with a good whisky to be drunk while in the bath) this isn't in any belief about the healing power of pepper, I just love the smell.  Does it make me feel good, fucking right it does!  Do I care why?  No I don't.  Do I believe that the pepper oil has medical properties? I don't know, but I do know that you don't want to get some neat on 'sensitive skin'.

[Sloper]

I can't remember what belladona is used for but it's "fo real'

Deadly nightshade, it contains atropine and hyoscine.
I claim my £5.

Yeah and if you can state the three common law exceptions to the rule against hearsay I'll actually consider paying up.