They will help here http://www.ukclimbing.com/
Quote from: Krank on November 09, 2009, 10:01:29 amThey will help here http://www.ukclimbing.com/As I said - I have checked there...Just thought that the more friendly bunch on UKB may give me better answers, maybe not....
Watch James McHaffie on Masters Edge in the film "On Sight".If you're going to say downclimbing isn't allowed, do you mean you're not allowed to downclimb to the ground or at all? If its only the former, then what about downclimbing back to a ledge or niche for a rest, why is that allowed and not to the ground, are you only allowed to downclimb 10% of the distance you have already climbed, or is there some other arbitrary rule that should be applied?Onsight means that you've climbed from the ground to the top without pre-practice/top-rope inspection/weighting the ropes/being told significant beta. If you climb up so far, and then return to the ground under your own steam you still have no knowledge of the remainder of the route. I'm sure you could riposte that taken to absurdity you could do one move, climb down, rest do two moves, climb down rest and repeat ad nauseum, but I think we both know that thats a) absurd and b) now what you're getting at.Watch On Sight, its a great film.
Nice one Slackers, that about covers it; lock this topic now!
I do have a copy of onsight, and it was watching it yesterday morning that made me think of this I think onsight should mean climbed first go from bottom to top, not in as many attempts as you like.For example say you have a route with easy moves and one hard move at the top, you can do the easy moves as many times as you want and down-climb, then do the hard move whenever. Surely this is onsighting a move, not a route?
If you're going to say downclimbing isn't allowed, do you mean you're not allowed to downclimb to the ground or at all? If its only the former, then what about downclimbing back to a ledge or niche for a rest, why is that allowed and not to the ground, are you only allowed to downclimb 10% of the distance you have already climbed, or is there some other arbitrary rule that should be applied?
I'm sure you could riposte that taken to absurdity you could do one move, climb down, rest do two moves, climb down rest and repeat ad nauseum, but I think we both know that thats a) absurd and b) not what you're getting at.
Quote from: Stubbs on November 09, 2009, 10:15:57 amNice one Slackers, that about covers it; lock this topic now!Why - can you give me a definite answer?
because its a shit topic, onsight has a meaning and thats what it means.
LOG-PILE!
Its all semantics. some people take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection. Some take "onsight" to mean done without prior knowledge or inspection at the first attempt. Personally I'd call this "onsight flash". What we need to do its stop hoping to condense all the details about any particular ascent into one or two words. It doesn't work, since you can't even get everyone to agree on the terminology, let alone enforce that terminology.
Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent. You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.
What dave said (esp wrt "Onsight flash") and what Bonjoy said
Ok - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent.
You may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before.
Quote from: Tris on November 09, 2009, 10:27:56 amOk - I guess what I'm saying is that if you down-climb, then it is the same as a ground up ascent. No, because a "ground up" ascent can still be with prior-knowledge. Quote from: Tris on November 09, 2009, 10:27:56 amYou may not have weighted the rope but it's not really 'Onsight' as you have seen and climbed the bottom moves before. This don't make any sense. So you're saying that any information you glean yourself in the course of an onsight attempt invalidates the onsight? So if you go for a hold, hold it, decide its no good then let go to find another hold then you've blown the onsight? This is becmoing a very odd definition of onsight.Like what lovejoy said, to most people bothered about onsight what matters is turning up and getting yourself to the top of the route working everything out yourself. I don't recall meeting anyone who is bothered about doing a route where you're only allowed to progress upwards and you must use the first and only hold you hit straight away without hesitiation deviation or repetition - this is climbing not "just a minute".
I just found this definition:FLASH. To climb a route without practice (but perhaps with beta) without falls on the first viewing and first attempt. (This is very similiar to onsight, which is even purer: no beta.)Now this says 'first attempt' so I guess down-climbing is not allowed in a flash ascent...If you have climbed the bottom moves before then surely this is beta as you know how to do them and are most likely using less energy. I think we should have a new term, maybe yoyo-onsight?