Can you believe that i spunked 25 quid away today so that I can vote for the other guy?
Quote from: Will Hunt on July 20, 2016, 11:54:57 pmCan you believe that i spunked 25 quid away today so that I can vote for the other guy?Christ Will, why didn't you say so. You could have saved us both £25.
Quote from: 36chambers on July 21, 2016, 09:25:00 amQuote from: Will Hunt on July 20, 2016, 11:54:57 pmCan you believe that i spunked 25 quid away today so that I can vote for the other guy?Christ Will, why didn't you say so. You could have saved us both £25. Ha! That's cheered me up.....
Well whoever wins is going to have a good fighting fund at least.
Quote from: Teaboy on July 20, 2016, 11:46:06 pmThe Labour Party does not belong to the Unions, the Members or the affiliates, they are just custodians for a movement who's sole purpose is to make better the lives of the poor, disposed etc. The most important people probably barely know who Jeremy Corbyn is and it makes no odds to them whether the affiliate fee is £3 or £25 as they won't be joining regardless, however it is them that should be shaping the Labour Party as they need a party in power (or at least a strong opposition) far more than the Labour Party needs unwavering ideals. When Kier Hardy started the Labour Party I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking 'If I don't get exactly what I want then fuck it, I'll sit here with my ideals and hope I get elected anyway' and nor should today's Labour Party. To be in any way effective the Labour Party needs to get elected by whatever means possible and to enact whatever policies it practically can. Common sense tells us this will be a watered down version of the ideal but it needs to engage in realpolitik. If people want to posture like a bunch of sixth former socialists then they should fuck off to the SWP, it's what it was invented for isn't it?It doesn't matter that JC is a good and principled man, there are fucking millions of them, what we need is someone credible. This is the most unprincipled, amoral govt. we've had since the 19th century and JC has not landed a glove on them. It's no good whinging on about the media being unfair etc., it was ever thus from Foot's donkey jacket through the Welsh Windbag and on to Ed's bacon sandwich, once a narrative has been created around someone it's impossible to reverse and JC has long since passed that point, he doesn't seem credible so it's time for someone else to try. It might not be successful but we won't get anywhere with JC. Much as we might wish it otherwise politics is all about personality and charisma (q.v. the rise of Donald Trump, and the Brexit campaign) and JC has neither. I'm not saying anyone else does either but we are right up a creek and Owen Smith is the only vaguely paddle shaped thing around. +1 to all that.
The Labour Party does not belong to the Unions, the Members or the affiliates, they are just custodians for a movement who's sole purpose is to make better the lives of the poor, disposed etc. The most important people probably barely know who Jeremy Corbyn is and it makes no odds to them whether the affiliate fee is £3 or £25 as they won't be joining regardless, however it is them that should be shaping the Labour Party as they need a party in power (or at least a strong opposition) far more than the Labour Party needs unwavering ideals. When Kier Hardy started the Labour Party I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking 'If I don't get exactly what I want then fuck it, I'll sit here with my ideals and hope I get elected anyway' and nor should today's Labour Party. To be in any way effective the Labour Party needs to get elected by whatever means possible and to enact whatever policies it practically can. Common sense tells us this will be a watered down version of the ideal but it needs to engage in realpolitik. If people want to posture like a bunch of sixth former socialists then they should fuck off to the SWP, it's what it was invented for isn't it?It doesn't matter that JC is a good and principled man, there are fucking millions of them, what we need is someone credible. This is the most unprincipled, amoral govt. we've had since the 19th century and JC has not landed a glove on them. It's no good whinging on about the media being unfair etc., it was ever thus from Foot's donkey jacket through the Welsh Windbag and on to Ed's bacon sandwich, once a narrative has been created around someone it's impossible to reverse and JC has long since passed that point, he doesn't seem credible so it's time for someone else to try. It might not be successful but we won't get anywhere with JC. Much as we might wish it otherwise politics is all about personality and charisma (q.v. the rise of Donald Trump, and the Brexit campaign) and JC has neither. I'm not saying anyone else does either but we are right up a creek and Owen Smith is the only vaguely paddle shaped thing around.
I challenged somebody on Facebook to prove that they did not view JC as a deity by listing three of his faults. We all have faults don't we? I'd be interested to see what those backing him on this thread cite as his three most significant flaw. If people reply then I'll happily cut and paste what the response was on Facebook since it is guaranteed to give us all a laugh.
Quote from: Will Hunt on July 21, 2016, 12:12:02 pmI challenged somebody on Facebook to prove that they did not view JC as a deity by listing three of his faults. We all have faults don't we? I'd be interested to see what those backing him on this thread cite as his three most significant flaw. If people reply then I'll happily cut and paste what the response was on Facebook since it is guaranteed to give us all a laugh.Shit the bed, 3 - he's got a lot more faults than that. Still, doesn't mean there are better options at the present moment. Unless you really think Owen "Ideological Chameleon" Smith is really "The Man"...
Quote from: Fultonius on July 21, 2016, 02:26:39 pmQuote from: Will Hunt on July 21, 2016, 12:12:02 pmI challenged somebody on Facebook to prove that they did not view JC as a deity by listing three of his faults. We all have faults don't we? I'd be interested to see what those backing him on this thread cite as his three most significant flaw. If people reply then I'll happily cut and paste what the response was on Facebook since it is guaranteed to give us all a laugh.Shit the bed, 3 - he's got a lot more faults than that. Still, doesn't mean there are better options at the present moment. Unless you really think Owen "Ideological Chameleon" Smith is really "The Man"...He doesn't have to be "The Man". He merely has to be "The Man that doesn't lead the Labour Party to utter electoral ruin and hand the Tories a majority of 95". Also perhaps "The Man that ensures MPs aren't threatened with deselection for the crime of not supporting the leader, so they can get on and maybe formulate some policies and try to win over the electorate by looking vaguely competent." Being "The Man that can actually field a shadow cabinet" would also help.
When Kier Hardy started the Labour Party I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking 'If I don't get exactly what I want then fuck it, I'll sit here with my ideals and hope I get elected anyway' and nor should today's Labour Party. To be in any way effective the Labour Party needs to get elected by whatever means possible and to enact whatever policies it practically can.
And P.S. what meant by "Ideological Chameleon" is that he is portraying himself as one thing to try and win the leadership election, when his voting record and past history appear to point in a different direction. pointless link that will probably get ripped to pieces for some reason or another
Quote from: seankenny on July 21, 2016, 02:50:12 pmQuote from: Fultonius on July 21, 2016, 02:26:39 pmQuote from: Will Hunt on July 21, 2016, 12:12:02 pmI challenged somebody on Facebook to prove that they did not view JC as a deity by listing three of his faults. We all have faults don't we? I'd be interested to see what those backing him on this thread cite as his three most significant flaw. If people reply then I'll happily cut and paste what the response was on Facebook since it is guaranteed to give us all a laugh.Shit the bed, 3 - he's got a lot more faults than that. Still, doesn't mean there are better options at the present moment. Unless you really think Owen "Ideological Chameleon" Smith is really "The Man"...He doesn't have to be "The Man". He merely has to be "The Man that doesn't lead the Labour Party to utter electoral ruin and hand the Tories a majority of 95". Also perhaps "The Man that ensures MPs aren't threatened with deselection for the crime of not supporting the leader, so they can get on and maybe formulate some policies and try to win over the electorate by looking vaguely competent." Being "The Man that can actually field a shadow cabinet" would also help.But what if he's the man that continues the drift of the party towards the party they're trying to oppose? Who does this help?
I can't speak for whoever made the ideological chameleon comment, but to me that clearly is a pop at popularism i.e. being a weathervane, not a signpost. We have seen where that leads - Trump, Brexit.
To take us to the other side of the pond -
Quote from: Nigel on July 21, 2016, 03:38:40 pmI can't speak for whoever made the ideological chameleon comment, but to me that clearly is a pop at popularism i.e. being a weathervane, not a signpost. We have seen where that leads - Trump, Brexit. There's only one problem with this analysis. Look at all the negative things about Trump: One of course is Boris Johnson. And the other... well I'll leave you to have a guess who that might be.
Quote from: erm on July 20, 2016, 12:52:16 pmLabour won a landslide in 1997 with PR in the manifesto and then chickened out.+1 for PR*I'm hoping the situation with Scotland might have some impact here in one of a few possible ways. One would be for labour to decide they'd like to have some representation north of the border. *I despise the current hegemony of representative democracy. But we can at least try to improve it.
Labour won a landslide in 1997 with PR in the manifesto and then chickened out.