[cofe]

I agree with dense.

careful. it's a slippery slope.

[Johnny Brown]

Wow, font has had a good effect on Dense. First smiles, now sense!

I don't know where some of this grade nonsense comes from. We're in a real danger here of sending the uk font scale the same way as the uk tech scale, ie by focussing on 8a as some kind of magic grade above which things are REALLY hard and constantly downgrading things beneath to unwittingly create a half-closed scale.

It felt easier than things like Renegade Master, Slingshot, Western Eyes, Who needs readybreak, Bens groove sit start (caley), Terry etc which are all seen as 7c now

I thought Slingshot was 8a, Ben's groove sitter hard 7c+, and Western eyes benchmark 7c+, Terry  7c, Ready Brek 7c (but who knows its pain tolerance not climbing)

it felt harder than things like the terrace, Famous Grouse, Full Power?

I think Famous Grouse is accepted as nails 7b+ or 7c, Terrace borderline 7c/ 7c+ and Full Power 7c+ (not done it but has been compared as similar in style and easier than Help the young sitter, which Ru gave 7c+).

and at least half the 7cs I have done in Font

This should be the most important consideration if the scale is to be a font scale not a uk font scale.

Having tried and watched the first problem I think it is quite likely to not be as hard as web pundits are suggesting - ie 7b+. Having watched lots on Jumpers for Trousers, and the fact it took Ben 2 visits not 2 goes I think its safe to assume 7c+ though as everyone seemed to get close fairly easily some beta might mean 7c. Worth noting that good conditions are important in this area as it is a real suntrap.

[Stu Littlefair]

Oh dear, you were doing so well with the first part of your post...

. We're in a real danger here of sending the uk font scale the same way as the uk tech scale, ie by focussing on 8a as some kind of magic grade above which things are REALLY hard and constantly downgrading things beneath to unwittingly create a half-closed scale.

And then a few lines later you forgot what you said yourself and wrote...

Full Power 7c+ (not done it but has been compared as similar in style and easier than Help the young sitter, which Ru gave 7c+).

Full Power is definitely a soft 8a, but it's harder than a lot of 7c+'s, and as you quite rightly point out our grading scale should cover the full range. BTW, it's quite different in style to HTYSS, but probably easier. I don't know why Ru put it in at 7c+, probably to get back at you for all the nasty things you've said about Raven Tor.

[Ru]

Oddly I put HTY sitter in at 7c+, because that's what I was told it was. I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a. Then Nodder said 7b+, so I thought 7c+ is a fair compromise, given that it clearly isn't 7b+. It will be 8a in the next guide.

[a dense loner]

stu, did you seriously put full power is soft 8a, but is harder than a lot of 7c+'s? well, i never

[cofe]

on HTY sitter i thought it was in at 7c+ as Johnny Bullwinkle had only done it avec pied block at the start. He subsequently did it sans pied block, now it's 8a? C'est vrai?

[Stu Littlefair]

stu, did you seriously put full power is soft 8a, but is harder than a lot of 7c+'s? well, i never

the way things are going, I'm getting confused by the whole grading system thing. I thought BB's new problem got 7b+ 'cos it was harder than the terrace, which is 7c? How does this stuff work again?

[nic mullin]

I'm only voting for 7c 'cos there's no 7a+ button.

maybe there's some logic to it after all 

[Johnny Brown]

I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a

A give it 7c+/8a at the time innit - based on the fact I didn't, and still don't, have any other 8a ticks on my cv to compare it to. I didn't, and don't have beef with your judgement of hard 7c+, which as Cofe points out was based as it was on the start with the block which I haven't used since. Missing it makes little odds on my sequence, but it does on the one used by most repeats, including Nodders.

But the fact remains I know a few folk who've done or tried both it (with block) and Full Power and found Full power similar and easier - no opinions to the contrary have reached me anyway. So one of them is graded wrongly. Do we downgrade Jerry, or upgrade me?

[Jaspersharpe]

Fucking hell give it 8A for God's sake. Then at least there will be one left!

[cofe]

I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a

A give it 7c+/8a at the time innit - based on the fact I didn't, and still don't, have any other 8a ticks on my cv to compare it to.

thought you did westworld word?

from the comfort of my armchair HTY reads like an 8a.

[Johnny Brown]

Shit so I did. Look at me.

[Jaspersharpe]

I see what you did there. Nice work.

[cofe]

hey johnny, you're great.

[Andy B]

Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list. I'm beginning to see a trend here.

[carlisle slapper]

Stick to your guns Ben, don't let the bastards grind you down. Effort on dousing some steely moves on the crag formely known as 'that's just a bumbly venue'. Due to G grades i think UK grading has switched from bottom up to top down for a select few in the last year and there are some discrepencies appearing. If someone can persuade the honorable Mr Gaskins that his 8cs are actually 9a then things will probably be ok (could cause a minor ripple in world bouldering), as it's now the source of my opinion on grades. John has actually achieved these levels years ago so why should we ignore them?. At the moment the jump between his unrepeated stuff (i.e. stuff we haven't wriggled an easier sequence out of) and other 8b's round the country is pretty vast. That said he did those problems long ago so i reckon things should be graded in relation to his 8cs rather than start at 3a and work up and hope that 8b-8c roughly correlates to john's problems. That would require ALOT of reprinting/ humble pie though. There is also a disceprency with his pre/post frankenjura grades, which can probably be sorted by regrading the post frankenjura ones by taking off the: Screw-you-marcus-you-invidious-prick-try-and-repeat-this -2grades factor.

The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated (if needed; as easier sequences often keep the same grade) and to keep everything else as normal (which means in a few years someone (atleast as strong as Tyler) might manage to do all the moves on Shadowplay or Il Pirata and give it the grade it deserves. That way i might stop altering all the other grades of problems i do, which then should stop screwing with the minds of other people who repeat them. That hasn't happened as of yet and probably needs more consensus, which i guess is why i've been keen on expressing my 'modest' opinions on alot of problems i've done since getting stuck into some of John's stuff. Slingshot is soft 7c if your tall it's just people get their skirts in a twist about the landing (probably add a grade if your feet cut on the first move), try chequers groove ground up (a better problem too) and then try giving them both 7c+ (this is also morpho mind).

anyone who's done Ironman, get yourself on Attrocity exhibition it's the same grade on the same boulder
why aren't all those people crushing 8a+s in the cave nipping up to pillbox wall for a quick send?
lets put the hangers back on Brandenburg Gates, it probably would have only been 9a+/9b, route climbers are doing those in a few sessions nowadays


I'd add Leroy to your list Dense, he's been keeping it real in wales for quite a while

just about on topic...

[Johnny Brown]

The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated

I think that's the only option. Downgrading everything else in reference to unrepeated problems is plain daft.

Slingshot is soft 7c if your tall

And if you're not?

[Johnny Brown]

Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list

Sounds fair to me, might even have been my opinion that counted there. I did it quickly, I don't climb 8a, therefore its not 8a.

I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.

[cowboyhat]

Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list

Sounds fair to me, might even have been my opinion that counted there. I did it quickly, I don't climb 8a, therefore its not 8a.

I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.

Pretendy humble bollocks. Like Stu said you've undone yourself again.

I can demonstrate on demand every 7c+ on eastern grit wearing trainers but can't climb 8a because Ru said I can't in his definitive no questions stone bible...

With help the young what happened was, you said, 'HTYS might be 8a', then someone mentioned the dreaded block, then the toys came out and indignance drove you up it without the block on a warm day with no warm-up. Which does not mean that it isn't 8a.

I addressed Westworld on Bonjoys 'grade changes list etc' thread. Similar sentiment.

[Stu Littlefair]

I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.

Naturally then symmetry demands that the "I've/so-and-so has done it and can't climb 8a, so it can't be 8a" argument that you just used on westworld is similar bollocks. Honestly, do people pay no attention to logical equivalence? What do they teach in schools, etc.

[Ru]

Ok so HTYSS goes up to 8a. Which other eastern grit problems that aren't currently given 8a in the guide need to go up?

[dave]

how about piss at higgar?

[Jim]

and famous grouse 

[cofe]

is brad's arete ss at seagull tor still 8a?

[abarro81]

and famous grouse 

We thought this was nails until Newman unlocked the magic beta.. Don't put LF in break, put left heel on first left hand sloper instead (with LH on sloper 2, RH on arete), move LH to 3rd sloper, RH bounces up to arete at break (RF pressing against LHS of scooped wall for this), cut loose and put RF on over lip, LF back on 1st sloper, et voila now it's all a million grades easier. Putting heel on is awkward but makes everything after easier and less scary.