[Adam Lincoln]

Firstly. Am i right in thinking bouldering grades are graded for the best possible sequence? Well, either way, that's of little consequence to the next paragraph.

Now i don't normally get involved in grade debates. But.

The main problem IMHO in the UK is we have quite a lot of areas with a fair few die hard locals. And these same individuals keep getting on all these problems, and doing them and doing them till they get a false sense of the difficulty. It doesn't take a degree from Cambridge to realise that the more times you do something the easier it gets. Now think about the traveling climber visiting these areas for the first time. Is the grade of the problem now a fair grade after it has been downgraded due to locals lapping it? I think not. Maybe if easier sequences are found, fair enough.

Does any of that make sense or hit home with anyone? Surely i can't be the only one that thinks this is a major contributing factor into British grades?

[tim palmer]

yes, spot on.  nothing else to say.

[Jaspersharpe]

Superman is done completely differently now that the sidepull has gone. It now uses crimps that were eliminated on the original version.

The sidepull's been fixed.

Superman is a fucking hard problem anyway. I'd say the original way was definitely 8A+ for me (could do the moves but didn't link it after a couple of sessions on it). Having never tried The Joker I can't compare but it's knacky one move 8A and there doesn't seem to be any argument about the grade. Surely the Jerry quote is just the usual thing with it being how it felt to him on the first ascent of these problems rather than what they've settled down as. I was always surprised to see Superman quoted as 8A anywhere - it's really hard and must be two grades harder than The Hulk! Or is that just me?!

Adam - I agree totally. That's one of the invalid reasons for downgrading I mentioned earlier. In Font a lot of the problems are knacky and once you've cracked them you can do them over and over. Some of the locals have the place totally wired and can make 8A look like 6A. The problems don't get downgraded though do they, and rightly so as they haven't become any easier! It's simple.

[Ru]

When did the sidepull go on?

[Jaspersharpe]

I went on Friday and the ladder was propped up against it with tape on the hold with "do not move til Friday" on it. Seemed solid enough so I took it off. Used it on the Hulk start a few times and it was fine and tried pulling on it a la Superman, also fine. Apparently Jerry fixed it but that's just from Twitter.

[dave]

It seems that nearly everything is this country has started to be downgraded or undergraded.
Can we please stop all this nonce sense and try and keep the grades real.
 

Don't you think accusing all downgraders of paedophilia could be at the least, something of an over-reaction?

The issue about locals grading is worthy of debate. Even if you've done a problem 1000 times you should still grade it based on what it felt the first (or at a push the second) time you climbed it. Otherwise you'd have idiots like me writing gudie and giving buckstone dyno 6c+ and blind date 7a+. its meaningless. However, i'm sure for a lot of the grade 6 level circuit problems in font, this is precisely what has happened over the years.

[Kingy]

I went on Friday and the ladder was propped up against it with tape on the hold with "do not move til Friday" on it. Seemed solid enough so I took it off. Used it on the Hulk start a few times and it was fine and tried pulling on it a la Superman, also fine. Apparently Jerry fixed it but that's just from Twitter.

This is great news, now ppl have the option of climbing Superman both old and new school ways.  

I agree with what's been said re downgrading after problems are wired. What about if a kneebar is found that is only possible if you have the correct length of leg? Should the problem grade be split to reflect the (lower) grade for those who can get the kneebar and be higher for everyone else? Should grading of these problems be the same as for reachy problems like Blind Drunk where you only get 8a if you can't span straight through the hard move and are forced to pull on the dirty crimp? (leaving aside the choice of left heel or toe on BD for the moment).

[Adam Lincoln]

I went on Friday and the ladder was propped up against it with tape on the hold with "do not move til Friday" on it. Seemed solid enough so I took it off. Used it on the Hulk start a few times and it was fine and tried pulling on it a la Superman, also fine. Apparently Jerry fixed it but that's just from Twitter.

What about if a kneebar is found that is only possible if you have the correct length of leg?

No examples spring to mind with this point. Oh wait a minute  

[Richie Crouch]

 

[dave]

blind drunk is only blind drunnk if you're doing blind drunk - reaching through is not blind drunk, hence no need to grading nonce sense there.

kneebars are rarely a binary "either it fits or it doesn't" issue. someone with a short lower leg but the strength to extend their foot out to press it in can make a kneebar work where soemone else with the same length leg would complain of it not working. similarly someone with a lower leg which is too long on paper can often get away with it if they've got a flexible ankle. if you're not careful you end up giving everyone a seperate unique grade based on morphology. at the end of the day you give a problem a grade for someone with in a reasonalbe distribution of joe average climber and just accept that different people will find different things harder or easier. we're grading problems no ascents here, don't forget.

[Adam Lincoln]

kneebars are rarely a binary "either it fits or it doesn't"

Never tried Trigger Cut then? You should. You will def get those long legs of yours to bar!

[Kingy]

blind drunk is only blind drunnk if you're doing blind drunk - reaching through is not blind drunk, hence no need to grading nonce sense there.

If you have the option of not doing it then the hard version is an eliminate and it would make sense to give the grade of both versions, not that I have a problem with eliminates.

[dave]

kneebars are rarely a binary "either it fits or it doesn't"

Never tried Trigger Cut then? You should. You will def get those long legs of yours to bar!

i actually tried this many years ago (before it was popular!) but throwing feet up in the far right roof felt well spooky just above one mat with only the shortie spotting.

[Adam Lincoln]

kneebars are rarely a binary "either it fits or it doesn't"

Never tried Trigger Cut then? You should. You will def get those long legs of yours to bar!

i actually tried this many years ago (before it was popular!) but throwing feet up in the far right roof felt well spooky just above one mat with only the shortie spotting.

Get yourself back then and do it, you will have more than one pad nowadays in the cave! Then that will unlock Halfway, and then you will never leave...

[dave]

not the most practical venue for me to have a project. its bad enough having a project at burbage these days.

[Jaspersharpe]

[dave]

I was thinking more about the weather/conditions to be honest......

[Jaspersharpe]

 

[Ru]

This is great news, now ppl have the option of climbing Superman both old and new school ways.  

It kind of begs the question how you should be doing it though. Old superman without the crimps (post foothold breakage) was 8a+/8b (probably 8b), then a bit of the hold broke (definitely 8b IMHO), the it fell off altogether and was 8a+ using the crimps. Using everything used to be about 8a/+, I think this was known as Superwoman, I'm not sure. I say its better to start at the bottom and climb to the top any-old how, to make a good non-eliminate hard problem than consider it to be 2-3 poorer eliminates.