[Fiend]

Something I've become more aware of recently.

I've climbed a fair bit around the UK, and in recent years pushed myself and climbed closer to my current limit a fair bit around the UK. Generally this has been or well established trade routes or at least Lancashire.

But sometimes I've gone off the beaten track in my quest for esoterica, intially with the intention of pushing myself in those more esoteric areas - simply because I found some challenging routes that inspired me in those areas. I've quickly learnt that such off-beat areas have challenges of their own before even considering climbing close to my limit, and I've had to readjust accordingly.

An example from t'other thread:

Berry Head Quarry - fuck that for a laugh. Had a look before and was inspired by Equipoise which is an inspiring line, but....

Equipoise - attempted, okay start, good wall in lower 3rd, crap line in middle. Got part way up upper wall, some dodgy rock, lots of lichen, huge runouts between rusty pegs. 5c rope-drag rockover to gain a peg with 10m total fall onto a small cam in a thin flake with rusty peg 5m below that and nut in loose block 5m below that. I abbed off.

Comparing this to Break On Through @ Sharpnose climbed the day before - same grade but basically a climbing wall experience compared to Equipoise - was an interesting comparison. Not the only place I've got those "This ain't Stanage any more" vibes this year.

I find it somewhat interesting how it highlights discrepancies in how we apply our grading system and indeed how we deal with situations as climbers - although I suspect it often boils down to the climbs simply being objectively harder. Obviously this isn't rocket science and I'm not pretending it is. Obviously if this was a problem the solutions are either to climb better or drop my grade (I choose the latter - I get value in easier grade choss anyway ).

I'm getting these strange urges for Lleyn too.... ???

[RopeBoy]

Fiend,

I quite like esoterica, the problem is that it's sometimes dirty or vegetated and the grades can be out because it doesn't see much traffic for the grade to settle.

J :-)

[Johnny Brown]

I've yet to find an area whose grades are seriously to cock. I think its just a case of getting used to the style and environment. Its often the case that the most esoteric areas have been developed by the most experienced climbers too, such as Waddy, Littlejohn or Fowler. If you don't like their grades you have to accept that you're probably wrong.

The Lleyn is fantastic. Path to Rome is probably the best place to start. Similar in many ways to The Moon, and generally superior. Take lots of mid-sized cams, and save a friend 4 for the belay.

[Paz]

I didn't know which route Equipoise was when you first mentioned it - I can see now why you were interested, it looks great in the guide.  At Berry Head Quarry I lobbed off an E1 that also looked good, when I went off route to avoid uber lichen, and snapped a hold off (I knew it was dodgy, dammit) and ripped a wire (I knew it was crap, dammit).  Luckily I had a good thread below that.  Have you been to chudleigh?

[Teaboy]

It seems to me that you are climbing at your limit in these esoteric areas its just that you are judging where that limt is based solely on grades rather than the experience. Not like you!

I'm getting these strange urges for Lleyn too.... ???

I have a Llyn guide to sell, pristine nick, never left the house. Open on many occassions but never for longer than 2 minutes a time before I replace on the book shelf and move on to something more sensible!

[Fiend]

It seems to me that you are climbing at your limit in these esoteric areas its just that you are judging where that limt is based solely on grades rather than the experience. Not like you!

Hah! Well, the grades are a guide aren't they. If I want to be challenged I pick something that I think will challenge me (but still be doable). If as JB says the grades aren't to cock then that should be a similar overall challenge if it's Burbage or Berryhead Quarry but let's face it it isn't. Equipoise would be E4 5c if it was at Avon and clean.

Talking of which, Paz go and do it but ab down with a brush first or something. You're welcome to keep the wire I abbed off 

[Fiend]

I've yet to find an area whose grades are seriously to cock. I think its just a case of getting used to the style and environment. Its often the case that the most esoteric areas have been developed by the most experienced climbers too, such as Waddy, Littlejohn or Fowler. If you don't like their grades you have to accept that you're probably wrong.

The Lleyn is fantastic. Path to Rome is probably the best place to start. Similar in many ways to The Moon, and generally superior. Take lots of mid-sized cams, and save a friend 4 for the belay.

Yes and no. Say you've got a certain move above certain gear and it gets a certain grade. Then you have the same move, the same gear elsewhere but this time the rock is lichenous and a bit fragile and there's less wear and tear to show where the route goes. Science suggests that the latter should deserve a higher adjectival grade for the overall challenge - although some might say that science has no place off the beaten track .

Okay so you're far more experienced and skilled with such terrain - although maybe to the extent you are unusually comfortable with it's challenges?? But in my own punterish dabblings I am picking up a bit of a grade discrepancy, not a huge one but definitely something there. I suspect I've been spoilt with the steady path of polished trade routes I've been on for the last decade but even so. If adventurous stuff isn't harder for the grade then chalked roadside cragging is damn well EASIER!!

File me under "softy" and say my climbing education is just beginning .

BTW Craig Dorys (sp) looks great in the select guide. In at the deep end and all but following inspirations....

[Fiend]

File me under "softy" and say my climbing education is just beginning .

Did Cannibal @ Left Hand Red Wall recently....obviously adventure LITE (it even had a bit of chalk on it), but it's a start eh. Loved it, want more 

[Ged]

Have to say I've found the opposite.  Most "off the beaten track" areas i've climbed at, the grades have felt pretty steady.  Take Pabbay/Mingulay for example, a lot of routes there are really easy for the grade.  Where as some established test pieces in popular areas, say Yorkshire Limestone, are genuinely hard.  I think remoteness does get factored into it when people establish these routes as it's probably felt like a pretty narly experience.  But as someone else said, when the first ascentionist is somebody particularly hard, like Fowler, then the lieks of us will probably feel the gnarliness more than them.

I've also noticed the same in the alps;  loads of crux pitches in the Dollies or Swiss granite given say 7a+, aren't really 7a+ compared to the valley crags.

[SA Chris]

I suspect first ascentionists in more remote spots tend to grade a bit conservatively to make sure no-one gets into trouble on the routes where rescue or retreat is not really an option. Insufficient repeats mean they normally stay that way. They often seem to over star new routes as well, and the routes are usually not down-rated for similar reason.