[MrBlue]

here's one for all you training obsessives out there.

i'm getting stronger, that i know from the simple fact i'm cruising stuff i couldn't touch six months ago. but my stamina is crap - on the longer problems i'm knackered by the time i get to the top. coupled with the fact that when i was down at camber a few weeks ago i went for a swim and seemed to be working harder than i remembered...

now, i know i'm not *that* unfit - i live in london and spend a fair amount of time walking fairly quickly up and down streets (usually cos i'm running late), and i do situps/pushups/pullups/most evenings and mornings. but i can't be as fit as i thought i was. :cry:

so. two questions.

one - is this a common problem with climbers, especially boulderers - strong, but not that fit in 'general' terms?

two - is there anything i can do to improve my general/cardiovascualar fitness (think that's the right term) that isn't going to cost too much money? (i'm a skint student...argh).

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

one - is this a common problem with climbers, especially boulderers - strong, but not that fit in 'general' terms?

Yes

two - is there anything i can do to improve my general/cardiovascualar fitness (think that's the right term) that isn't going to cost too much money? (i'm a skint student...argh).

Move out of London.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

To be a bit more helpful....:wink:

Running, swimming or cycling are great at getting your general level of fitness up but the best training for climbing is...more climbing.

If your struggling with stamina on longer problems try regularly doing some long traverses, or do laps on some easy problems without touching the ground.

[BoulderHog]

Stamina's a real problem if you're into bouldering - you'd much rather boulder for a couple of hours and get real gains in strength, than spend 5 hours hanging off jugs with the end result being that you can hang said jugs for a little longer.

Boulder endurance / power endurance is a better aspect to work on - do laps on problems, do longer boulder problems, set up a system board and lap ladders - stuff like this will really help, especially since you're unlikely to get on any problem longer than about 15 moves which is still a boulder and not a poor man's route (traverse).

At the end of the day, if you're not naturally gifted with a decent base level of stamina for routes (meaning you didn't start when you were 5) then it'll be hell to get to a good level and even harder to maintain throughout the year, and then you'll still get your arse kicked by that 10 year old girl who can onsight fr8a+'s with her eyes shut.

So I reckon build a small wall at home - say 8 foot square, cover it in identical groups of holds with a range of difficulty, and then do ladders and laps on it, up to 15 or 20 moves in total with the quickest of chalk ups in between. Wood holds are good for this being skin friendly.

I think fitness is a problem for most boulderers - but more likely this is because people tend to gravitate towards what they are better at doing. So if your muscles are more suited to powerful but low duration work, then you ain't gonna stick with routes for long, and vice versa for endurance and bouldering. It's also a lot to do with how you train for bouldering as well, going for a jog feels like a waste of time that could be spent campusing or bouldering to squeeze out a more tangible gain, or watching telly and recovering between training sessions. Boulderers are heavier overall as well, which affects stamina to some extent, but it generally doesn't matter if bouldering is all you do.

Maybe you're just going through a bad patch? Over training on strength and power can leave you feeling pretty knackered despite still being able to complete your training sessions. If it's general fitness you want though, then go for a run or something, but don't expect it to improve your climbing much cos it's muscle endurance related to climbing your'e after, which is quite specific.

My route stamina is shit, always has been, but my power endurance has improved loads since doing some of the stuff I mentioned, but it counts for nothing if you over train, you will still feel just as weak and tired.

[Bonjoy]

At the end of the day, if you're not naturally gifted with a decent base level of stamina for routes (meaning you didn't start when you were 5) then it'll be hell to get to a good level and even harder to maintain throughout the year, and then you'll still get your arse kicked by that 10 year old girl who can onsight fr8a+'s with her eyes shut

 I don't think this is true at all. I know plenty of climbers who have only taken up proper pumpy route climbing late on (mid to late 20s) and have built up a very respectable levels of stamina in one season.
 The main reason most boulderers have shit stamina is just because they don't put any time into it. This is understandable because stamina is not that useful for bouldering.
 When in route climbing mode I find stamina gains come a lot quicker than power gains, but you do have to put the time in ie. 3-4 sessions on pumpy routes a week for at least a month. One or two odd sessions of traversing is going to have little effect. Also although stamina gains are quick, you also loose stamina just as quickly, if you don't keep getting pumped.
 My advice would be not to bother with stamina training if you only intend to boulder, concentrate on power endurance instead. If you want to build stamina for routes you need to cut the bouldering training and concentrate on stamina for a while.

[dave]

if you train power and power-stamina a lot you will find you can get a little bit of a stamina gain through the back door (as it were) cos although you're not increasing your stamina capacity, the moves will just feel easier so won't get you as pumped.

I agree that people do have a natural leaning towards power or stamina, and it can be hard to break that. although having said that i recon its easier for a power person to break into stamina than it is the other way round. personally i'm a power person, but if i'm honest the main reason i've got shit stamain is cos i'm too lazy to train it, and like to play to my strengths - i'm guesing i'm not alone in this.

[Scouse D]

I had abysmal stamina about 2 months ago but have been sport climbing quite alot and can now climb routes which are over 20metres long. I ain't shittin ya.
I'm pretty weak at the minute though.
What I'm saying though is that it ain't hard to get reasonably fit quickly.

[moose]

I suspect it'd be nice to have stamina - but I'm certainly not willing to put any real effort into its acquisition.  Spending hours doing laps of easy stuff just strikes me as being a bit joyless - if I wanted to spend my leisure time engaged in repetitive physical activity I'd take up rowing.  

I climb because I enjoy the challenge and the sensation of doing moves that are at my limits.  If only climbing stuff that interests me means that I develop power at the expense of stamina... oh well... just have to work to your strengths and embrace your failings  Besides, like dave said, you do get some stamina as a byproduct of power - but not the other way around (increase your max load -> moves on easier stuff take up less of your wad -> you can do more of them.. bingo).  Anyway - I can't help but feel systematically wokring at stamina would somehow represent a victory for Neil Gresham... and that I cannot contemplate  :wink:

[account_inactive]

If you are mainly bouldering then you won't be taxing your cardiovascular system hence why your endurance will go to shit.  Conversely you should find the moves on routes easy so one option is to sprint through them on the redpoint.  This is obviously not going to be great for your onsighting!

To a certain degree its always going to be a trade off between power and endurance.  You don't often see Carl Lewis running marathons do you.  I think the gentic potential that people talk about is not going to effect you that much unless you are at the top end of our sport.  Specific training will help you in the way of the rope.........................













but then again its gonna get colder by September  so why bother

[bigphil]

people do have a natural leaning towards power or stamina

...and yet I have no power and no stamina.  I must have a natural leaning towards neither ... or to laziness.

[andy bowie]

i would mix up your training a bit. I used to train alot with a guy from Glasgow who was a mutant on circuits - i did circuits for a couple of months (in addition to load of weights) and then got back on the 50deg board. after a week or so there was a real step change. also its essential that you do more and more days on - 2,3,4-8 days on, days off etc - this raises your general bouldering fitness so much more.

[clm]

back door dave??

[Paz]

Doesn't extra strength raise your capacity for endurance, the maximum possible you can get?  But doesn't in itself magically give you extra endurance apart from that you seem to get from finding given moves easier which isn't really the same thing and isn't as effective or as quickly gainable anyway as actual endurance is (once you've got a base level of strength) - if you don't want to get pumped the best you can do is not get pumped so fast by getting pumped more often.  Or gaining more flexibility so you can milk rests and shake outs and tick the karma sutra.  Or by climbing easy slabby bold routes and making excuses for or kidding yourself.

[vivahate]

i thought strength increased endurance. surely if every move feels easier because your stronger, then you can do more of them? Obviously once on longer routes this won't apply??

[dave]

Or by climbing easy slabby bold routes and making excuses for or kidding yourself.

you know me too well pazazzle.

[Paz]

I didn't have you in mind, there's much worse than thee out there.  

VH:  I know but it's not really endurance, you're that damn strong you never have to use any, it can just look like it and it ain't that effective.  Dave's got strong enough to climb 7c, how long is it going to take him to climb sport 7c+ or 8a by training strength (I know he's a lanky thingymorph(*)) and how long is it going to take him by training endurance.  The answer to the second one could be as short as just over a months worth of holidays in france or spain climbing routes he doesn't like.  You can probably think of two climbers one very much stronger than the other one but who just can't keep climbing 6a/b ground as long.  This applies to a lot of indoor boulderers I know and it might be down to it a route always feeling hard on the first try and the diferring climbing styles, but it'd spoil my fun to tell them that at the time.  

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