[shurt]

I have been immersed in my new copy of Peak Rock the last few days and its got me thinking about the changes in how first ascents are reported back then and now and when and how things changed regarding points of aid.
It seems that it was commonplace up until the 70s to have points of aid on a first ascent; either nuts or pegs (placed or from a previous aid route being freed). The thing that I found interesting was that the person credited with the first ascent would be the person using the point of aid whilst the first free ascensionist would merely appear as a footnote of the next new guidebook.
Roll on 30-40 years and we are now all, rightly, about free ascents. If someone did a first ascent of a cutting edge route nowadays with a point of aid I'm not sure this would be accepted as a valid ascent where as in the past it was? I wonder when this change happened and am trying to think of any recent examples of new UK routes with points of aid.
As I've said elsewhere on here, if you've ever climbed in the Peak, it's such a brilliant book.

[benpritch]

the Whore of Babylon at the Tor is the only recent (20? years) example I can think of? oh and Masters of the Universe at Burb s? Both Andy Pollitt routes.

[dave]

The masters one would probably be accepted now too cos its a hanging belay on old bolts, presumably impossible to get to otherwise.

[Johnny Brown]

You could downclimb the route first for the full tick.

[Paul B]

You could downclimb the route first for the full tick.

Placing gear on Lead? Sounds like a great plan.

[remus]

Th Great Arch on Pabbay was put up in 1997 and had a point of aid for a long time, though Dave Mac freed it recently.

[Bonjoy]

You could downclimb the route first for the full tick.

And blow the onsight?

[Doylo]

There are two long 8a's on the Diamond that start from the second bolt.  Both have perhaps Font 8a climbing off the floor so are really unbalanced and it seemed silly not to climb the 25 metres of amazing sustained rock above.  Ideally they need doing from the floor of course, hopefully this year......

[dave]

You could downclimb the route first for the full tick.

The second would have to downclimb it first to put the gear in, then you'd follow to the belay cleaning the gear, then back up placing the gear. Whilst everyone standing round the pile of mats under Trellis pisses themselves.

[Peak Performance]

the Whore of Babylon at the Tor is the only recent (20? years) example I can think of?

But surely the Whore was an all-out aid route first? Andy reduced it to a free route, but with 2 points of aid.

Phil

[Paul B]

Doylo said:
There are two long 8a's on the Diamond that start from the second bolt.  Both have perhaps Font 8a climbing off the floor so are really unbalanced and it seemed silly not to climb the 25 metres of amazing sustained rock above.  Ideally they need doing from the floor of course, hopefully this year......

mildly more justifiable on a crag where ground level varies depending on how vigorous the sea/tides have been.

[benpritch]

the Whore of Babylon at the Tor is the only recent (20? years) example I can think of?

But surely the Whore was an all-out aid route first? Andy reduced it to a free route, but with 2 points of aid.

Phil

How can it be a free route with 2 points of aid? Surely it is simply a climb with 2 points of aid remaining. Reminds me of a sentence i read recently ' ground up after abseil inspection.' 

[Johnny Brown]

Reminds me of a sentence i read recently ' ground up after abseil inspection.'

Aka a 'redheadpoint'?

[dave]

the Whore of Babylon at the Tor is the only recent (20? years) example I can think of?

But surely the Whore was an all-out aid route first? Andy reduced it to a free route, but with 2 points of aid.

Phil

How can it be a free route with 2 points of aid? Surely it is simply a climb with 2 points of aid remaining. Reminds me of a sentence i read recently ' ground up after abseil inspection.' 

Were's the aid on Whore? Is it like Stone's thing at the tor where he would have two etriers to get established on the climbing?

[kingholmesy]

I've not got the guidebook to hand, but I think A Groove Full of Mirrors at Pentire Point is in as a FA by Martin Crocker despite having a point of aid?

In answer to the OP, I suppose as standards of climbing have risen, and perhaps more importantly as there are less FAs left to do, it's only natural that there should have been a shift in thinking regarding claiming routes with a point of aid.  I guess a lot of the old routes with aid points were done onsight, and people just moved on to do other new routes rather than revisit them to eliminate the points of aid?  Would be interesting to hear from any old timers ...

[Peak Performance]

How can it be a free route with 2 points of aid? Surely it is simply a climb with 2 points of aid remaining. Reminds me of a sentence i read recently ' ground up after abseil inspection.' 

No, Pollitt took an all-out aid route and created a free route that still had a couple of aid points. It was a positive thing to do.

[shark]

How can it be a free route with 2 points of aid? Surely it is simply a climb with 2 points of aid remaining. Reminds me of a sentence i read recently ' ground up after abseil inspection.' 

No, Pollitt took an all-out aid route and created a free route that still had a couple of aid points. It was a positive thing to do.

Quite. There is obviously a lot of good free climbing on the route. Zippy really rates it. And the challenge to free it totally is still there - but it would be massively unbalanced in difficulty.
 
Things aren't so black and white as they often appear vis a vis Aid and free.

I did a couple of new trad routes at High Tor with aided starts. One was straightened out bolted and freed by Gibson with chipped holds the other I retrobolted and started a couple of feet to the right on the free version which is quite good (Pump out the Squealies) but the Trad route with aid was exciting and a bit of an adventure. What's best ?

Freeing an aid point can have shades of grey. When Nic Sellars did Justified using a stuck-on artificial hold Tony Mitchell "freed" it to make Unjustified but by altering the line to go a different way so was it really freeing the original line?

The FA produces a line with what they think is the best solution within their capabilities at the time ideally with due respect to he rock, ethics and protection. Sometimes they get it wrong but I don't think Whore of Babylon is especially deserving of ridicule.