[nai]

I completed a programme (self assembled which could be part of the problem) last Thursday which was about 6 weeks base/aerocap, 2 weeks of bouldering & mostly rest during the family holiday then 4 weeks ancap & bouldering. I know I could have done with a couple more weeks on the Ancap but it's just the way life worked out and the clock's ticking on the season. I've actually just realised I might have done all this for just one route so I really want it make it count

Since then I've pottered having very short, hard sessions and trying longer easy sessions, but they've been a real struggle and I've even canned a couple unable to get past the warmup stage.

Then I went out yesterday but got pumped on the warmup.  I did then mange to do all the moves on Why Me? in two overlapping bits but didn't feel as close to redpointing it as I'd like to have been.

So what's the deal?  I was getting pretty tired toward the end of the block but should it be taking so long for tiredness to dissipate and the benefits to manifest themselves, am I still doing too much or maybe I've just got it spectacularly wrong?

[krymson]

I can't really comment on the rest of the program, but by 6 weeks base/aerocap do you mean 6 weeks of aerocap? or is "base" something else more intense?
6 weeks of only aerocap seems quite long.

[lagerstarfish]

give Philip and Johnny a call

one of them could probably help you out

[abarro81]

I completed a programme (self assembled which could be part of the problem) last Thursday which was about 6 weeks base/aerocap, 2 weeks of bouldering & mostly rest during the family holiday then 4 weeks ancap & bouldering. I know I could have done with a couple more weeks on the Ancap but it's just the way life worked out and the clock's ticking on the season. I've actually just realised I might have done all this for just one route so I really want it make it count

It could easily take a week or two to climb out of a dip if you've trained yourself into oblivion. I'm confused by your plan - why is your ancap at the end? No power endurance (an pow or aero pow) in there? What route is it for?
What feels hard about the long easy sessions? Personally they're the ones I find easy to do when burnt out because I don't notice that I'm weak as hell and totally dipping. I don't do any high volume work if I'm tapering, just short sessions.

[webbo]

I've never used tapering in climbing but in the context of cycling/triathlon. You reduce the duration of session but keep the intensity the same, so for instance if you 5 sets of intervals you reduce it to 3 in the week before the big day.

[nai]

Krymson:

The plan has worked out like this since returning from an injury layoff in May I've done a few weeks of easy outdoor climbing followed by six weeks of building up slowly - bouldering, longer Aerocap circuits and sets of 10 easy problems. Two weeks enforced rest with a smidge of climbing on holiday in August then Ancap and hard bouldering since returning.

aborro81:

I guess I'm using Ancap as a catchall Endurance term, this consisted of circuits of various lengths and intensities, 4x4s and foot on campussing, generally three endurance sessions and two bouldering sessions per week for four weeks.

I'm looking at doing Call of Nature, basically because I tried it at the end of last season but just when I was ready to start redpointing I ran out of partners and weather. 

The easy sessions I was intending to be the 10 easy problems workout but whereas I usually do five sets with five minutes rest I ended up pumped and actually fell off on the fourth problem of the first set.

Cheers for the response, good to know it can take a while.

[abarro81]

OK, so for the terminology I use, none of you 'ancap' training is actually ancap training..

Anyway..

The easy sessions I was intending to be the 10 easy problems workout but whereas I usually do five sets with five minutes rest I ended up pumped and actually fell off on the fourth problem of the first set.

Using a problem you've used before (i.e. it's not just that the problem was too hard?)? If so, and you're basically falling off what used to be a cruise, then it sounds to me like you're burnt out - it might take a week or two to get out of the dip, let alone get into good form

[nai]

OK, so for the terminology I use, none of you 'ancap' training is actually ancap training..

Oh this is so confusing.  Anyway....

Using a problem you've used before (i.e. it's not just that the problem was too hard?)? If so, and you're basically falling off what used to be a cruise, then it sounds to me like you're burnt out - it might take a week or two to get out of the dip, let alone get into good form

Yes, very much should have been a cruise.  4th problem in a set of 10, usually do five sets resting five minutes between.  But forearms just locked up and that was the end of the session.

Cheers, I'll take it easy for a while, short bouldering sessions and maybe some route mileage?

[PipeSmoke]

Hey dude, sounds like something similar that happened to me a few months back, was getting pumped on routes id flashed despite training harder than ever.
Just take it easy and see how it goes would be best thing, mix it up a little maybe. Should come back stronger when recovered fully

[abarro81]

If it were me I would stick to short sessions, whether those sessions were bouldering or PE. Ditch any aerocap you might be doing.

[ghisino]

+1 for the short intense sessions.

btw i don't really understand how much you've been resting/reducing your workload for?

also, are you hiding any significant variable that might affect your performances? (such as: shitty conditions that day. You've gained 3 kg in 2 weeks. Your training and ukb trolling obsession had you fired from work, your banking account is going red and you can't sleep more than 2 hours per night. Etc...)

anyway this is how i was explained "tapering":
the main aim is not to lose those qualities (physical, technical, emotional) that will "detrain" during a prolonged rest period, but still it is basically a rest cycle.

it should be as close as possible to your goal yet not really demanding overall- to make a simple example if you trained directly at the crag à la sharma, your tapering sessions could be 2 warmups and 1 one-hang try at your project or the redpoint of a slightly easier yet similar route, then stop.
(On the assumption that your training involved much heavier sessions, such as 2 tries working the moves plus 3-4 repeats of slightly easier routes)

you should keep the same number of sessions you're used to or reduce them slightly, eg 3 per week instead of 4

obviously the moment to stop tapering and go for it is when you start to feel strong, psyched and ready...textbooks say 1 or 2 weeks.

to finish, remember that it is possible to keep an "80% fit" state after you've peaked by doing something that is somewhat in between heavy training and tapering, for instance one heavy redpoint session during the weekend plus a couple of short sharp sessions during the week - this is more or less how competitors manage a comp season and it is possibly the most sensible option if you don't have a tight schedule and success is deeply dependent on variables you can't control, such as unpredictable weather conditions or partner availability...

[Eddies]

give Philip and Johnny a call

one of them could probably help you out

Phillip says youve just had a shit session, it happens to us all... forget about it and quest on.

[nai]

btw i don't really understand how much you've been resting/reducing your workload for?

I'm not sure I understand this but I finished my "plan" on Thursday and struggled to warm up for a short session on both Sunday and Monday then performed badly outside on Tuesday.  Been out tradding this morning and felt clunky, again my arms locked solid on the warm up but I managed to recover and lead a couple of E2s.

also, are you hiding any significant variable that might affect your performances?

Yes, poor sleep for a couple of weeks and visitors made for a heavy weekend.  Maybe combined with the increasingly heavy training load a slump was coming.

obviously the moment to stop tapering and go for it is when you start to feel strong, psyched and ready...textbooks say 1 or 2 weeks.

Yes I think part of the problem is that I've tried to transfer from training straight to climbing. Now, I wasn't expecting to start ripping heads off straight away but maybe I was hoping to see some sort of gains immediately which would continue building to a peak after a few weeks, rather than the massive decline I experienced.

Cheers for the advice, much appreciated

[Dolly]

Have you been on Why me before ?
I'm asking as if you did it in 2 overlapping sections first time on then isn't that a good start consistent with the training ?
ie its all about the same apart from the crux which is harder a) because its harder and b) because you're tired/have less power (not necessarily pumped) when you get there.
Therefore, the more you learn the moves and get specifically stronger on them you'll have enough for the crux.


In conclusion. I don't think the fact you didn't RP it yesterday means that your training isn't working/hasn't worked.


Not sure if that makes sense/helps.
I just bet you're better on it next time you go on it

[nai]

I'd had two session on it previously albeit two or three years back, ran out of weather on that occasion.  Sequence isn't that hard to read, just needed the feet sorting out again.  Bottom wall felt harder than I remember (it's not 5b is it?) and the top about the same initially although I then used a different foothold which made the first move slightly easier.  No way could I clip the top runner though which i was hoping to be able to. 

Thinking (ok, obsessing) about it since I'm hoping I can extend the top runner to clip from the little slot and not bother with the second, even if it's only 2ft higher it'd eliminate some of the swing and make the potential fall a lot less scary. Also the top moves tax the left arm more so take a moment at the slot just to have a quick shake, as long as the right still has the beans to hold the slot for the initial reach it'll be ok from there in.

In conclusion. I don't think the fact you didn't RP it yesterday means that your training isn't working/hasn't worked.

Agreed, although I thought it would be a good benchmark and was hoping to complete it, it was getting pumped on the 6b warmup that was baffling and again today my forearms locked solid the moment I pulled on.

[Boredboy]

Hey Nai,

I'm not sure what you mean about your forearms locking up? But it could be just over training or that you've got a bit of a seasonal bug or something. I've just had a cold for a week or so and leading up to it felt over trained and 50% weaker.  I've also made an error before thinking lots of home wall training would immediately transfer to peak limestone then I was shit when I actually got on rock, in fact worse than before the training.

I look back at the training routine now and it just lacked specificity. Sorry if this sounds really basic but maybe your training didn't replicate peak lime well? The crimps on Why Me? are pretty nasty for 10 or so moves and wouldn't be much fun as a training problem, also difficult to replicate hold size and angle. The same goes for Call of Nature which is all minging crimps. Probably the closest I get to replicating this at home is deadhanging crimps (full no thumb) sometimes with added weight either Eva Lopez or Chris Web Parsons styleee, and it took me ages to get any better at this- e.g. 6 months plus and still weak as piss, so 6 weeks bouldering indoors and ancap may not give a great specific training effect .

Anyway I can't imagine that all the training was a waste, it may just take a session or two to filter through - time to go crush some limestone crimps surely!

Good luck on the routes anyway , looks like the season is gonna last a bit longer.

[Rocksteady]

I've also made an error before thinking lots of home wall training would immediately transfer to peak limestone then I was shit when I actually got on rock, in fact worse than before the training.

I look back at the training routine now and it just lacked specificity. Sorry if this sounds really basic but maybe your training didn't replicate peak lime well?

This totally rings true for me - I said something similar in this thread: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21464.msg402303.html#msg402303

Basically it's happened to me a couple of times where I've trained really hard, gone outside and expected to crush and fallen short of my expectations or even my usual standard. I think it's usually to do with lack of recent time on rock because of plastic training focus, lack of specificity, and also being overtrained.

What has happened to me in the past is a mini-peak two weeks after feeling flat and exhausted. Have a go on your route in a couple of weeks of normal training and report back?