[tom_greenwich]

Hi Guys,

Over the last couple of weeks I've got back into running after a break of a few years. Doing 5-8km a few times a week. However over the same period of time I've noticed my finger stamina has hugely reduced.

I used to be able to do 2 full sets of 7+3x6 Slopers, Mid2, Front2, Back3, Crimps on the beastmaker. Now I'm failing toward the end of the first set!

Any idea what's causing it? Do I need to up the intake of protein/carbs or something?

[andy_e]

Just in a trough of the training wave?

[Stevie]

But are you enjoying the running?

I think the only time running has ever affected my climbing is when I've been 80km+ per week or the day after a track session (core is more often than not like a bowl of jelly) although though this has been subsiding since doing the sessions more frequently.

I'd go with the slight trough theory or the ... you've added sat 20-30km of running (say 2-3hours more exercise a week) into your lifestyle and your body is adapting to it- Which is tends to do fairly well.

A personal thing I have certainly found over the past 4 years of running and climbing is that it is far easier to climb before running than run before climbing and still do both well

Guess I should also say that I have never managed to run at a peak level and climb at a peak level simultaneously. Although I'm currently managing to do both at an alright standard (obviously this is a personal 'alright standard' and is compared to some not that good)

I hadn't planned on writing that much when I started, promise!   

[psychomansam]

You certainly won't have lost it from the fingers in that sort of time.

Your body is just adjusting. As you've just started up the running again, you'll have longer recovery times having more effect on your climbing. This recovery time will quickly drop off.

That said, sleep well, eat well and make sure you take on what you need for recovery immediately after your run (for instance, a good glass of skimmed milk and a banana).

In the long run, that level of running would do no harm, perhaps even some good (mainly if weight loss is helpful for you)

[Dexter]

how shortly after your run are you doing these? its probably just your body focusing on recovery once it gets used to the running it will be fine. Personally I dont run that much or well but once you get into the swing of it I found I could recover faster from both running and climbing sessions although that may be just palcebo or maybe because I was pretty unfit at the time.

[tommytwotone]

Two things - firstly, I don't (personally) find running a great partner to climbing. Second, don't forget the specifity element of training.

I've done Great North Run twice (2010 and 2012) - the first time I trained running alongside climbing, which made me an alright runner and knocked my bouldering grade down a notch or two.

In 2011 I didn't run at all, bouldered exclusively and (I assume consequently) had the best winter season of my life 2011 / 2012. Did the same number of new 7a and above problems (7a / 7a+ is my max grade) in that 6 months than I'd done in the preceding 16 years of my climbing career (HALAM etc...).

This year I all but totally sacked climbing off, ran 4 times a week clocking up c. 20-30ish miles a week. Smashed my 2010 Great North Run time but now I've come back to bouldering I'm weak as a kitten and going through the lack of finger strength / no session stamina (can do about a hour tops) / lack of flexibility woes at the moment. I'm assuming it's just a case of re-purposing my body, so a case of getting through the few weeks of readjustment.

The above could all be balls - it's just my experience so totally subjective. I'd be looking at what you're doing, how suitable it is to your goals etc before you start trying to fix it with supplements. We can't all be good at everything all at the same time!

[GCW]

I'd agree with that.

This year I've been running (albeit very slowly) a fair bit, Marathon, 3 half marathons, got 3 more night races on and potentially the Rivington 26 mile fell race and another Marathon next year.  I've not bouldered for months, apart from 2 trips to the wall which were pathetic.

I personally am going to finish off the running, then come back to bouldering and crush like a garlic press.

[mrjonathanr]

Liverpool Marathon coming up at weekend, then I'll run casually and occasionally if at all. Still on the boards 2/3 times a week, and getting stronger, though some of that is because I'm getting a little lighter ( - 4kg over  2 months).

I don't think it's inherently damaging for climbing, but from what I've read endurance training after strength training may reduce gains by ~20%, so they're not easy to manage concurrently, excepting the occasional burst of aerobic activity which is just healthy in my view.

[tom_greenwich]

Cheers guys, I'm hoping its the trough theory too, seems likely.

I'm not substituting any of my climbing session for running, and generally don't run and climb on the same day. I only usually get to the climbing wall once or twice a week anyway and then fingerboard at home on other days.

I also always have a protein shake (usually with Milk) post run or climb.

I'll keep going and see if I come out of the trough as I'm enjoying the runs at the moment.

[Nibile]

I've read somewhere on the Net - so it must be true - that even just 10 minutes or so of cardio can produce up to a 20% loss in strength. I tried to find the article but sadly can't. I don't know if it's science or not.
From a muscles' point of view running is very catabolic for what I know, so maybe this affects also the arm/forearm muscles?
I'd be glsd to know more about cardio and muscles' catabolism/strength loss, if anyone has some science for a specific thread.
Not that I plan to be doing any cardio anytime.

[mrjonathanr]

From a muscles' point of view running is very catabolic for what I know, so maybe this affects also the arm/forearm muscles?

Recently I have a protein shake after exercise with (what's marketed as) HMB  added (by me). Probably a placebo. There's a thread somewhere about branch-chain amino acids - HMB is the derivative of leucine, and is purported to be anti-catabolic.

[Sasquatch]

You certainly won't have lost it from the fingers in that sort of time.

Your body is just adjusting. As you've just started up the running again, you'll have longer recovery times having more effect on your climbing. This recovery time will quickly drop off.

That said, sleep well, eat well and make sure you take on what you need for recovery immediately after your run (for instance, a good glass of skimmed milk and a banana).

In the long run, that level of running would do no harm, perhaps even some good (mainly if weight loss is helpful for you)

To give an anecdotal the other way, I've just come off my best/strongest season in 17 years of climbing and my fingers are stronger than ever, in conjunction with one of my best running years ever as well.  (1:32 1/2 Mary time) I've been running, finger training and climbing consistantly since January, which meant by the time peak season rolled around, I was adapted to that workload. 

[shark]

I think the only time running has ever affected my climbing is when I've been 80km+ per week or the day after a track session

Hi Steve

Been meaning to ask you about how you got so skinny but I think you've answered the question.

Has your leg mass changed +/- with all that running ?

[blacky]

I've just started running over the last few months and doing around 20miles a week and, fortunately, I can report the same results as Sasquatch.

I don't reckon you will have lost strength as a direct result of running but you defintely need to think of eating more calories unless you want to metabolise your own forearms! Apparently consuming protein with your carbs during / after hard workouts can slow your body breaking down muscle for fuel. I guess that might be worth a look? Racing Weight is a good book to have for all that nutritional shizzle.

I reckon the overall fitness / lightness i get from running has helped my climbing and the endorphines keep me more motivated to climb!!

[tom_greenwich]

I've been doing a bit of reading on shakes at MyProtein.com - they recommend more Carbs and rehydration for post running opposed to all Protein, which makes sense.

I was wondering if the running was depleting something (possibly Carbs) which was impacting me.

I'm going to leave everything as it is for next week or so to see if i come out of a trough, then if no sign of change will switch to a better recover shake.

Which ever way it is, The running isn't reducing my available time for climbing so hopefully even if it doesn't make me a better climber I'll improve general fitness.

Anyone got any good suggestions for good websites that give a gentle introduction to the science of training + nutrition, I'm pretty clueless on the subject.

[tom_greenwich]

Thanks - I'll check that book out. Can confirm the endorphines - been feeling great since starting running again!

[Sasquatch]

I don't think it's inherently damaging for climbing, but from what I've read endurance training after strength training may reduce gains by ~20%, so they're not easy to manage concurrently, excepting the occasional burst of aerobic activity which is just healthy in my view.

I think all the studies I've read on this do the two aspects as part of the same workout.  I'd be more interested in finding some studies that look at the impacts of the two if separated and appropriate post-workout recovery taken.  i.e. AM run, then a good breakfast and daily routine, then PM strength session, with appropriate dinner and sleep after. 

Over the years, I've found that logistics and planning play a bigger role than most people give credit.  e.g. I need about 36 hours between two finger sessions, which means I can do an AM FB session onThursday and have a great outdoor session on Friday evening, but if I do a Thursday PM session, my Friday afternoon outdoor is crap..... 

Also much like anything intensity is key, but is easy to underestimate the impact.  I've been running 25-35 miles a week all summer, but I started doing a race series a couple of weeks ago (1 race per week), and I've been feeling worked and tired ever since. No change in volume, but big change due to intensity. 

[Sasquatch]

I've been doing a bit of reading on shakes at MyProtein.com - they recommend more Carbs and rehydration for post running opposed to all Protein, which makes sense.

General theory has to do with what energy source you're using.  If you're running at a nice reasonable pace, you're not really breaking down much muscle tissue, you're mainly using muscle glycogen which is what needs to be replenished, hence the higher carbs vs. protien.  Classic recovery for running is chocolate milk which amazingly has a 4 to 1 carb/protien ratio which seems to be the most recommended ratio for cardio recovery. 

[mrjonathanr]

I've been told (?) that glycogen storage is more efficient if carbs are ingested with protein post workout- though for endurance carbs should predominate. in any case something is needed quickly to change post exercise catabolic state.

I think myprotein is a pretty good site for buying shakes etc, really cheap if you buy protein and oats etc to make up your own shake combo. Peak Performance Online is good for articles.