[petejh]

But you're claiming how well badly our education system compares to other nations. This is just so clearly untrue. I find it worrying that a teacher guidebook writer is happy to spout spurious claims about the quality of a system they don't work in, basing them on so little evidence as one flawed ranking table. Don't you notice things in the real world??

Bias selected? Check  Evidence selected? Check. Cheap suggestion of incompetence? Check.

Unimpressive to complain about others' methods if you adopt them yourself.

He used a ranking in a report to suggest that there isn't any evidence that the education system needs overhauling! That's absurd given the OECD report. I pointed out a report which places the UK 22nd and 24th in literacy and numeracy respectively. Check out the comparisons between the OECD data and the pearson report ranking table.

Also, the people in this study would have been in school through the Labour years. Conservatives screwing up the education system my arse. It was sub-standard long before the tories started messing around with it.

So if Labour did something badly in the past, that proves the Conservatives are doing something right now?

Errm..I get what you did there, clever.
Reduce the debate about education to a party-political dichotomy and use a syllogism.

Labour were rubbish > Conservatives aren't Labour > Conservatives can't be rubbish. 
Oh yes they can...!

What rubbish! That's a skewed interpretation of what I said and not my meaning at all.
I think the system's obviously been screwed-up by both parties over a long time period. Can I make that any clearer? Or are you going to spin that again to fit your own argument?
It's been demonstrated by the oecd report that the system was producing poor levels of literacy and numeracy over 10 years ago. Yet listening to this thread you get the impression that it's all recent and Gove's fault. Where's the context? What about the last ten years of sub-standard education? I, like you, think Gove's an arse but he isn't the whole story. It's just as valid to ask what's been wrong for the the last 10+ years which produced such poor standards as measured in the reports.

We were talking about performance-related pay weren't we?...     Based on the outcomes measured here - ''England is ranked 22nd out of 24 western countries in terms of literacy and 21st for numeracy'' – I can now see why so many of you teachers might not be keen on performance-related pay...

Aha! So it's the teachers who create the system and drive the agenda, not the Secretary of State?

Is my pay to be a reflection of Gove's performance? Yes, obviously from that comment.
...

Well, I think it's totally reasonable, when a report shows that we have amongst the worst levels of numeracy and literacy in the developed world, to suggest that teachers might not be doing a good job. I'm not trying to suggest that it isn't -  ''a complex situation (provision for 8+ million English-Welsh-N.Irish students) which needs a disinterested approach to achieve the best outcomes for all, retaining what is good, allowing good new practice to embed and bear fruit, and changing what is demonstrably weak through a careful collaborative approach''.

The over-riding argument being put forward on here - by teachers - is that it's entirely the system's (and the parent's) fault. That isn't a balanced debate - it's reasonable to ask if teachers may be a 'demonstrably weak' part of the system too. If you're going to look for weaknesses look at everything. I haven't heard that suggested by teachers so I thought it should be asked.

Or should it just be carved up on ideological grounds and see if simplistic soundbite methods work as well as they read in The Mail?

I wouldn't shit on the mail.

If you really, really care, you may want to take a step away from party ideology altogether and start looking carefully at what's actually happening to our children.

I'm actually not as passionate about this as you might believe I am, I'm pottering around off work following surgery so have time to kill on here! I just don't get the impression I'm hearing a balanced view of the facts from the teachers on here.
All I see is there are kids going in one end of a system which exists to educate them and coming out the other with comparatively very poor levels of literacy and numeracy. It's completely reasonable to wonder why that is, and to wonder what it is in that system that isn't working well, whether it's the overall system design or its components.

[psychomansam]

Kids are in school for 2.8 hours a day. In my experience home life and the attitudes of immediate adult role models can have a MASSIVE impact on attainment and performance in school.

However, education, like health, is a favourite political football. Instead of meddling to make the last lot look bad and themselves look good politicians should spend that money (our money) on:

1. Capping classes at 20 pupils
2. Putting a full time TA in every class

Not arguing really, but just thought I'd correct the number above. That's averaged over 365 days, with 90% attendance to the 190 school days. In other words, we're responsible for kids 11.7% of the time. Which proves just how true your comments are.

I reckon class sizes of 24 are reasonable. A TA for every primary class perhaps, but you could prob spend money better in secondaries than to expand numbers of TA's that much.

[mrjonathanr]

What rubbish! That's a skewed interpretation of what I said and not my meaning at all.
I think the system's obviously been screwed-up by both parties over a long time period. Can I make that any clearer? Or are you going to spin that again to fit your own argument?

I read it that way,you say I read it wrong -good!

What about the last ten years of sub-standard education?

I think Labour were improving things in education. Not in everything they did, but some of the  trend was positive. The report just highlights how far we need to go. You also know change will not come overnight, the child with a damaged primary education won't automatically fly because their secondary's improving. It takes time to really improve things.

I, like you, think Gove's an arse but he isn't the whole story. It's just as valid to ask what's been wrong for the the last 10+ years which produced such poor standards as measured in the reports.

The last ten years must be open to scrutiny, but the current destruction occupies centre-stage.

He's the whole story now, because he's destroying the coherence of the system and will move on from his portfolio leaving chaos. He is unique in his hatred of the system he should be managing. This level of destruction, spin and lies is unheard of.

Only today my school pulled all November English GCSE entries because it's sincerely believed 'the exam will not be allowed to be a success (by the DfES)''. Chaos, on a weekly basis.

Well, I think it's totally reasonable, when a report shows that we have amongst the worst levels of numeracy and literacy in the developed world, to suggest that teachers might not be doing a good job.

Sure, no problem with that, look into it. There's a range of performance in any workforce,  but the teachers have to comply with the rules set elsewhere. The disinformation from the DfES is that it's all the teachers fault but teachers deliver what the government tells them to. If that's badly conceived, doing it well won't change that.

The over-riding argument being put forward on here - by teachers - is that it's entirely the system's (and the parent's) fault.

I must have missed that. no-one's said it is all someone else's responsibility (apart from Gove). It's obviously a range of interconnecting factors and individual teaching is one of them.

Let me put it this way. If you're a mechanic and told you have to go through fixed procedures to service a car, procedures which are poorly designed, will following them well improve the outcome?

i can tell you what most people in my area believe: MFL assessment is not fit for purpose. Look here -and check who has signed the letter! (the last signatory was my French tutor once upon a time).
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/07/language-exams-grades-translate-results

That isn't a balanced debate - it's reasonable to ask if teachers may be a 'demonstrably weak' part of the system too. If you're going to look for weaknesses look at everything. I haven't heard that suggested by teachers so I thought it should be asked.

There should be a balanced debate, obviously. Most people would welcome that because they want improvement, but not chaotic change.  However when a tsunami is crashing over your house, you don't stop to ask whether you had the room layout right, that's a finer detail. You try to stop the house from falling down on everyone inside.

All I see is there are kids going in one end of a system which exists to educate them and coming out the other with comparatively very poor levels of literacy and numeracy. It's completely reasonable to wonder why that is, and to wonder what it is in that system that isn't working well, whether it's the overall system design or its components.

No argument from me there.

Apart from this: ''SOME'' kids. All is NOT a disaster, but the system needs to be raised up across the board, not torn down to service the profit motive of a low-wage economy. You think it's bad now? What's coming is worse.

[Baron]

The disinformation from the DfES is that it's all the teachers fault but teachers deliver what the government tells them to. If that's badly conceived, doing it well won't change that.

+1