[Paul B]

No, this isn't a thread about finding redemption at the end of a self-help book but more about getting out of a  situation.

The other day we were on the long drive to the High Sierra when Nat dropped a bit of a bombshell and I became a little worried. Basically, she said that whilst she'd have confidence in my ability to get her or us out of a sticky situation, she was less so about her own ability to do so, and given I often find myself doing the majority of the leading that comment was far from confidence inspiring.

My parents worried when I was a yoof and decided that if they sent me to Plas Y Brenin to do a course and receive a certificate said certificate would ease their worry about letting me climb with various people who they didn't know so well, and thus I've gone though basic self-rescue techniques but nothing overly complex (which I've tried to convey and some of which we've used, mainly assisted hoist).

For those of you who tend to like doing longer things, what level of competence do you (your partner) have in this area?

Is there anything fundamental worth learning?

[tomtom]

Didn't the other channel have a series of videos/articles about this recently (this year) ?

I've not watched/read them so might be worthless beta but somewhere to start?

[Johnny Brown]

Whilst I'm pretty confident I could cobble something together if necessary, I've climbed with lots of others who probably couldn't.

I tend not to worry about it too much - you simply don't really hear of stories where folk have had to ab down with someone, or haul them out. In most places folk seem to just sit tight and wait for the helicopter. If you think about the average kit most folk carry, you wouldn't have much option.

If the leader is knocked out more than 30m above (or half the length of whatever rope you have) there's not much you can do. Otherwise you'd lower them back to the belay (if it steep enough) and take it from there. 'Escaping the system' is only really of use if you a) can't get them back down and b) have an escape route that doesn't need gear. Judging by the average IRATA L3s I see, for most hauling someone up is going to be damn near impossible. If you're going on a glacier learn the basics and carry the kit. If not, its probably going to be easier to go down. Or wait for help.

[Paul B]

I'm not going near a glacier (certainly on this trip).  Ta.

[Muenchener]

I in fact did a self-rescue course with the DAV a few weeks ago. It was fun and I learned all sorts of cool rope tricks, but not so much that I think I would actually use in a real situation.

I have the same basic problem as you: my regular multipitch partner is much less experienced. I'm fairly confident I could get us out of most things we could get ourselves into; less confident that he could. Basic essentials: everybody *must* be able to prusik. This is sort of self evident, but it's surprising how many people carry prusik loops but never practice with them. And know ways to lower off hairy leads on questionable gear slightly more safely - ab or lower on one rope whilst still belayed on the other, if using doubles, or the petzl prusik tramline trick if on a single.

If you have a fallen unconscious/helpless leader and can't lower them to a ledge, then being able to tie off the belay plate and get the weight off your waist (i.e. "escape the system") would make your life more comfortable whilst waiting for the helicopter, but I'm not convinced there's that much else you'd realistically be able to if s/he is more than half a rope length away.

I have in fact had to do a tandem ab with a petrified child, and can confirm that abbing with another person hanging off your harness is bastard uncomfortable; had I but known at that point how to rig a two-person ab properly life would have been so much better for both of us.

One of the best things about the course was that the tutor was a member of an alpine rescue team and so had lots of real world experience to offer and wasn't just running through a syllabus. For example:

• After you've tried to get an unconscious or injured casualty into a sleeping bag in the rain, you'll understand why your first aid kit should *always* include a space blanket no matter how many bivvy bags, sleeping bags, duvet jackets etc you are carrying.
• If you are the rescuing party arriving on the scene of another party's incident, give the uninjured member of the rescued party some kind of non-critical busywork to do. Your working assumption is that they are in shock and cannot be relied upon for anything critical. Kind of like the midwife sending the husband to the kitchen to boil water.

[chillax]

Didn't Duncan get himself down from Sunkist, solo with a broken arm or somesuch? Would be a good person to chime in.

Much agreement with JB, by all accounts he knows that shit. For my own part, I find that as long as you're paranoid about safety and make sure to think through properly and not do anything stupid, you'll come up with something. "Y hang" abseils were a revelation to me when it came to bailing with a haulbag. Bailed off Negro Lesbian with a haulbag clipped directly to my harness. Ended up abbing through a tree, and the bag started twisting..... Almost ended up singing castrato after that one.

Make sure you have a way of passing a knot while hauling, and abbing with haulbag/significant other too. And make sure said significant other knows how to do it too should you buckle yourself while leading. From what I gather, theres a significant traverse on LF. Either make sure both of you could reverse it if necessary, or be aware of all possible bail strategies. Actually, do both. Have topos of all surrounding routes. Pete Zabrok never tops out on routes that hit Thanksgiving Ledge, just tags the summit and abs LF. Usually with a mass amount of crap with him too from what I gather. He's probably got some overly wordy description of how to go about it on supertopo.

This was probably all pretty obvious, but hopefully useful if there was one thing in there you hadn't previously thought of.

Good luck guys!

[jwi]

A friend had to haul up a dead partner (who had taken a terminal 100m factor 2 fall) halfway down a pitch and rap of a few pitches. The mountain rescue showed up 8 hours after the call. This was in northern Sweden in the winter (-30C) so the second would probably also be dead from hypothermia without basis knowledge of self rescue.

But in most places for summer rock climbing: just call for heli-rescue and let your insurance company sort it out.

[Falling Down]

God that's grim.

[Paul B]

Didn't Duncan get himself down from Sunkist, solo with a broken arm or somesuch? Would be a good person to chime in.

I think he's on the way back from the Hasse-Brandler. 

petzl prusik tramline trick if on a single.

Hadn't seen that before.

[tommytwotone]

After a similar conversation with a former partner we decided to do a course with a guy from Sheffield which taught us all the "escaping the system", "Y-abseil" etc stuff.


As with most things practical (accept this might be just me here) having not had to use it in anger I'd be pretty fooked if I had to call on the knowledge, say, this weekend.


Maybe get Nat to do a course, then schedule in a regular "refresher" for the two of you to practice the stuff relatively regularly to the learning doesn't go to waste? Accept that's probably not in the newlyweds "how to live happily ever after" guidebook though.

[cheque]

Before I went to Lundy a few years ago I persuaded all who were coming to gather at my mate's to practise prussiking up a rope hanging from his balcony as I'd learnt the technique but never actually used it myself (still haven't for real) and I suspected that was also the case for us all.

The guy who protested the most was doing his SPA and saw it as an affront to his mountain-man credentials. When it was his turn to do it it turned out his prussik cords were too thin and he couldn't make any upward progress whatsoever- he'd clearly never tried using them before. On the trip he still had said useless prussiks on his harness.

[Paul B]

On the trip he still had said useless prussiks on his harness.

Oh we've had plenty of stuck ropes requiring 'prussik practice'. The ones hanging from my harness are a bit 'slippery' on the new 7.5mm line!

[SamT]

Worth having this..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/089886772X

sat on your cistern. I peruse occasionally to keep it fresh(er) in my mind.  Never actually properly practiced any of the more natty stuff but hopefully some of it, and the general concepts are embedded somewhere in my grey matter. 

[ghisino]

all self-rescue techniques i've been taught rely more or less on the same basics:

-prusiking with two prusiks or, even better, a prusik loop, a sling and an ATC guide/reverso
-space hauling (with a carabiner+prusik loop as poor man's locking pulley, and another human being as haul bag)
-passing a knot on the way up or on the way down
-unclipping a tensioned runner on a traversing line

if you master these 4, you are climbing on double ropes and you always carry with you two 7mm prusik loops, a few meters of spare cord and a couple of spare biners you should be able to cover most scenarios.

in real life the only technique i would have used if i knew how to is space hauling your partner while abseiling (and he forgets to clip directionals on an overhanging pitch. and doesn't have spare prusiks to ascend).
For this you need to:
1) clip a long runner to the belay and the two ropes
2)clip yourself to the ropes in beween the belay and the lower biner of the runner
3)unclip from belay
4)pull up a few strokes while pushing down with your feet on the rock above your head (you are space hauling with 2 to 1 mechanical DISasvantage)
5)install a prusik on the ropes between you and the lower biner of the runner: then you can finally 1:1 space haul your partner.