[yorkshireman]

if 2 people are climbing a route and the belayer makes a mistake that leads to the climber hitting the ground and dying,is the belayer liable to prosecution for manslaughter or atleast causing death by a careless action?if this subject has been discussed before can someoen supply links to the discussions.obviously im refering to a totally belayer fault accident not a leader fall where a piece of gear fails,although if a bolt fails can the bolter be liable or if a cam breaks and its found to be defective can the manufacturer be liable?im basically doing some research(personal not for any gain or publishment) just to see how climbing is progressing in todays blame/suing culture.

cheers

[ShortRound]

I think this topic has been covered in various shouty/patronising ways on UKC. Probably worth doing a search on there.

[Fultonius]

He's just asking on here cos he's banned form posting on the other channel...

[grimer]

You mean like if Kevin Jorgeson fell off with George Taylor balaying?

[Jaspersharpe]

Or if Kevin Costner fell off with George Osborne belaying?

[yorkshireman]

 

He's just asking on here cos he's banned form posting on the other channel...

I am banned from ukc but its not exactly rocket science to go back on there if i wanted.i would rather ask on here because in general you get a less patronising answer although your negative karma for me posting this thread shows that its just as bad on here.

[tomtom]

Or if Kevin Costner fell off with George Osborne belaying?

What if George Osbourne was climbing and TomTom was belaying?

I heard bono's hat was a dab hand with a grigri...

[Snoops]

I am banned from ukc but its not exactly rocket science to go back on there if i wanted.i would rather ask on here because in general you get a less patronising answer although your negative karma for me posting this thread shows that its just as bad on here.

Chill man

[yorkshireman]

Just gets a little annoying when you post a legitimate question and get nothing but stupid answers and negative karma because someone doesnt like the topic.seems pointless asking in the first place tbh

[tomtom]

More seriously, google the law on negligence.. As iirc it's reasonably clear cut, and if a belayer were using the wrong technique or equipment and knew better they may well be liable. I think a key point is whether or not the person knew they should have been doing things differently. Eg your granny would not be negligent if she'd never belayed before and had recueved no instruction etc..

But I'm no lawyer!

[yorkshireman]

cheers tom,have done some basic negligence research but was wanting to know of any cases with specific climbing based accidents as there doesnt seem to be much info out there.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well...
It's not a stupid question.
But, it's not one most people would want to think about.
I've never heard of it happening and you would have to be a lawyer to answer (and it would be unlikely to be a straight answer).
I think it's unlikely that liability would be deemed present if the belayer was not paid or renumerated for the work. If there was some kind of coaching or instructing taking place (paid or unpaid) there may be an issue (though if unpaid it would be hard to prove).
Although there may be BMC guidlines for belaying, they are not legal requirements.
Some smart arse lawyer may try to apply rope access regs, but there is a fundamental difference.
It will be a sad day, when someone tries. But who would? Not the dead climber (I hope).
Never actually heard of a climbing accident being investigated to that degree. Since witnesses are unlikely and the rig would almost certainly be dismantled/altered before anyone arrived...
The puntering seems harsh, history?
Not my business.

[yorkshireman]

The reason i asked is because i read today about a husband and wife coupe and the husband had died in a fall and police had investigated so i just wondered if there was any precident on climbing accidents and prosecution.
No history that i know of,probably just sheeping on recent neg's that ive had,one pathetically for agreeing with the depot topless climbing ban.

[yorkshireman]

The reason i asked is because i read today about a husband and wife couple and the husband had died in a fall and police had investigated so i just wondered if there was any precident on climbing accidents and prosecution.
No history that i know of,probably just sheeping on recent neg's that ive had,one pathetically for agreeing with the depot topless climbing ban.

[Oldmanmatt]

Int'restin'.
Is there a link to the story?
Any "sudden" death, without a doctors opinion in the preceeding 48 hrs (ie the Doc said it was expected). Will be investigated by the coroner (in England, on the wet side of the boarder...?).
Two concenting adults, undertaking a know dangerous sport; Death By Misadventure (I hope).
Someone would have to suspect foul play before it would go further. Good way to bump off a spouse?
Generaly, the courts seem to take a fairly realistic attitude to liability in the UK, it's not quite the US yet. Still, someone will try it; one day.
Can't see much likelyhood of a criminal prosecution...

[Oldmanmatt]

Arrgh! Hate typing on the phone!
Ignore spelling etc.

[yorkshireman]

im pretty sure the police were only investigating as a death was involved,pretty sure no criminal proceeding ensued it just set my little grey cells wondering.one case i thought about is when joe simpsons partner cut his rope.would that be viewed as self preservation or attempted murder?many questions but there doesnt seem to be alot of info.as i stated innitially,this is just out of pure curiosity 

[Bubba]

Sounds like somebody is plotting a mud-der...

[yorkshireman]

the fact that i dont participate in route climbing would make that pretty hard